Massive CEO rewards for tax dodging

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, goody, we're doing pie charts! Of course that one is for the stock market, and of course most stocks are owned by the people who can afford to buy them. How about this one?

[gimpy117]

yes, but you forget, that the top 1% also have a giant share of the nations wealth and income. by all that i can see, they're actual income and % paid is pretty in line.

[Sailor Steve]

I forget nothing. The question is how much should they pay before you're satisfied? All?

How about we tax everybody at 100%, and then you can just give us what you think we deserve? That seems to be where we're bound anyway.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by August

Every argument of yours is invalid as long as you continue to lay in the partisan rhetoric bed that you yourself have made. Sorry.

you know you can be as partisan as I august.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I forget nothing. The question is how much should they pay before you're satisfied? All?

How about we tax everybody at 100%, and then you can just give us what you think we deserve? That seems to be where we're bound anyway.

and lets go straight to the ridiculousness and pouting. The sad part is, the Super rich aren't even taxed like they are supposed to be...and they still are taxed the lions share. Why is that? It's not a sign that we tax them to much, It's a sign of the giant amount more that actually make. that's something I think it terribly wrong here. We have eliminated the safety net that was the many holding most of the money. there is a reason in my eyes why our economy is in the same wealth spread as just before the great depression, and why we are in the great recession.

[Skybird]

August, in your country olike in mine and almost all Western countries, companies have to pay taxes. Working around these is criminal. It is njot double taxation, your logic is flawed there. Not values get taxated, but people profiting from them (that's why a piec eof land that has no owner does not produce any tax income for the state although it has a value). The company produces an income, and gets taxated for it. Employees get wages, and pay taxes on that wages. Shareholders getting an income from their shares, pay taxes on that income.

Gimpy, Steve, the issue here is not groups of tax payers and the share of taxes they pay, but individual offenders weaseling past their obligation to pay taxes. And especially when a big player not only pays hilariously low taxes of 1%, or none, but even gets tax returns from the IRS exceeding these payed or not-payed taxes, it should become evident what the problem is.

[August]

Originally Posted by Skybird

but individual offenders weaseling past their obligation to pay taxes. And especially when a big player not only pays hilariously low taxes of 1%, or none, but even gets tax returns from the IRS exceeding these payed or not-payed taxes, it should become evident what the problem is.

Skybird you have to realize that in our country we have these things called tax deductions. The cost of certain expenses, either in whole or partial, are by law allowed to be deducted from ones gross earnings before taxing the remainder. Mortgage interest is one of these deductions. Non-reimbursed medical expenses, other taxes paid (property tax for one), charitable donations and more are others.

I, hardly one of the super rich, was able to save 9K on my income taxes last year because of these deductible expenses.

So when these attack articles claim that corporations don't pay taxes they don't mention the millions of legitimate deductions involved to get that tax payment so low.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by August

Skybird you have to realize that in our country we have these things called tax deductions. The cost of certain expenses, either in whole or partial, are by law allowed to be deducted from ones gross earnings before taxing the remainder. Mortgage interest is one of these deductions. Non-reimbursed medical expenses, other taxes paid (property tax for one), charitable donations and more are others.

I, hardly one of the super rich, was able to save 9K on my income taxes last year because of these deductible expenses.

So when these attack articles claim that corporations don't pay taxes they don't mention the millions of legitimate deductions involved to get that tax payment so low.

Oh we have these deductions too, literally 1000s. Believe me, our tax system is even more complicated, a big mess.
And here lies the crux: You and me and every average taxpayer does the same as corporations: we try to find as many deductions as possible to reduce our financial load. While we are obliged to know all the tax laws - which is virtually impossible - we have not the resources to find and use them all.
The more financial or time resources you have, the more you are likely to find loopholes and use them for your advantage. The big corps have armies of specialists, who do nothing else. They find little flaws or loops, some of which even the legislature did not think when they adopted taxation laws. There lies the inequity.

The entities that profit from an environment that the taxpayer provides should be taxed directly. Indirect taxation - employee's taxes - should always be a second choice.
I also see a lack of political willingness to change that, to close loopholes or to make an understandable tax system with little till no exceptions.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

So when these attack articles claim that corporations don't pay taxes they don't mention the millions of legitimate deductions involved to get that tax payment so low.

Just because they're legal and legitimate doesn't mean they're ethical and the way things should be. Companies have lobbied long and hard to write the tax code to their benefit. The effective corporate tax rate in the U.S. is one of the lowest in the world, we're facing humongous deficits due in no small part to unfunded tax cuts, and yet still the rallying cry of the Republican Party is to cut taxes.

[Skybird]

Some years ago there was a docu on TV where they calculated in black-on-white numbers that around one half of all globally existent literature on tax systems and laws - are just about the German tax system.

And you may want to ask the question why these systems are being tailored to be so complicated. Maybe it has something to do with the immense lobbying done?

Tax deductions are a favourite ways for companies to reduce their tax obligations. Thats why the big players invest enormous money into lpobbying for such deducation schemes, and for expanding them.

You see, when some crazy man would legalise car theft, it would mean nothing. Stealing a car still would be considered to be a crime by every reasonable person. And a law tryxing to legalise that crime - maybe is nothing more than a law that is criminal in itself.

That'S how I think about tax deductions when they allow things like in the earlier described things. And law-makers accepoting such laws, are either incompetent, or criminal and/or complices themselves. Since there are many politicians who have positioned themselves inside massive conflicts of interest becasue they also hold some seat in some director'S board or are CEO in some bank, this cannot surprise at all. Being an elected representative of the people and at the same time being a member of a board of directors, does not go well - especially when the person in question has own treasures at risk, and as a politicians has the option to design legislation to give them special protection.

Those holding powers shall not be allowed to exclude themselves from the consequences of the decisions they impose onto all others. Politics and private business should be kept separate. Lobby work shall be prohibited, should be seen as what it is: a form of corruption and a bypassing of the electorate, and should be put under penalty. All tax deductions should be banned, like all subsidies should be banned, too. - This just for a start.

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Just because they're legal and legitimate doesn't mean they're ethical and the way things should be.

Really? How ethical would it be to deliberately minimize a shareholders dividend because you *feel* things aren't the way they should be?

Legal is legal. If you want to reduce or eliminate deductions then do it the right way and change the law. Don't think you can shame people into robbing Peter to pay Paul because that is unethical.

Companies have lobbied long and hard to write the tax code to their benefit. The effective corporate tax rate in the U.S. is one of the lowest in the world, we're facing humongous deficits due in no small part to unfunded tax cuts, and yet still the rallying cry of the Republican Party is to cut taxes.

No, the humongous deficits are primarily caused by out of control government spending. We waste trillions on domestic boondoggles and giving it away to ungrateful foreigners.

In 1962 government spending, adjusted for inflation, was $3000 per person. By 2002 it was $7000. That is just crazy and you want us to pay more? No way. Not until you show you can spend our money wisely.

When the federal government learns to live within it's citizens means then, and only then, can we talk about raising taxes, but we both know if that ever happens we won't need to raise them.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by August

No, the humongous deficits are primarily caused by out of control government spending. We waste trillions on domestic boondoggles and giving it away to ungrateful foreigners.

yes, but when you say "giving it away to foreigners" do you mean in bombs and bullets? before Iraq and Afghanistan we had a surplus. Then, we get into Overseas Boondoggles and spend even more than we ever could on things here like the bridge to nowhere. There is something to be said about domestic problems, but before 9/11 and the freedom fries era we were on the right track in my opinion.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by August

If you want to reduce or eliminate deductions then do it the right way and change the law.

That's exactly what the argument is advocating. Stop strawmanning it into something it's not.

No, the humongous deficits are primarily caused by out of control government spending.

Precisely. Spending on unfunded tax cuts, Medicare prescription drug plans and two wars, amongst other factors have caused the deficit. That's exactly what I said. Without those boondoggles as you call them, the deficit would be a fraction of what it is now. Cutting taxes even more in order to solve a problem that was caused in large part by cutting taxes is sheer lunacy.

[Catfish]

Interesting, i just do not get how someone can defend those companies behaving like a$$holes and giving nothing back to the nation who makes them and their earnings possible. Including the managers' own education which was paid by whom ?

Here in Germany stocks rise according to how much workers are being fired, and as long as that works there will be growing unemployment numbers. Statistics of unemployment in German are completely faked, they took out all under 20 (they are in education) and over 45 (they will not get a job anymore anyway). So unemployment really is a at real 28 %, instead of a lied 7.

And firing even good and valuable workers for rising stocks, it is of no concern how the company will look in 4 years, because as managers say "Boy do you think i'll be still here then ?"

A side effct of the growing fury among the less paid already leads to millionaires being willing to pay a lot more taxes just to shut them up and calm society. It just has become too obvious

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

That's exactly what the argument is advocating. Stop strawmanning it into something it's not.

I am not strawmanning anything. If anything this entire argument is a huge strawman. Implying what these corporations are doing is illegal ("they claim" and "dodging"). Strawmanning the concept that we have any right to tell a private company how much to pay it's employees.

Spending on unfunded tax cuts

Oxymoron. There is no such thing as unfunded tax cuts. That's like saying "dry water" or "sunny night time". You don't spend money that you didn't get, unless apparently you are the Federal government.

Medicare prescription drug plans and two wars,

This on the other hand is spending, and along with the trillions the Democratic controlled Congress used to bail out the automakers in order to keep those union contributors from loosing their overpaid jobs, banks and other thieves has got us into this hole. Sniveling about someone not paying enough is besides the point.

Cutting taxes even more in order to solve a problem that was caused in large part by cutting taxes is sheer lunacy.

There you go again, implying that rescinding tax cuts would:

A. Make a bit of difference in the multi trillion dollar debt the Federal government has spent itself into and
B. Does not perpetuate the tax and spend bad habits that got us into trouble in the first place.

Well wrong on both counts. It is our money that you want to steal and it has to stop somewhere. If that means the mighty Federal behemoth has to wither on the vine then so be it. I'm done putting up with it and I will vote and agitate against any politician who even suggests a tax hike in any form.

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

giving nothing back to the nation who makes them and their earnings possible.

Giving nothing? These hated corporations are our largest donors to charity by far. What do you think is going to happen if our socialists are allowed to take away those charitable deductions?