[WIP] IRAI (Intelligent Random AI)

0rpheus · 08-24-11, 05:48 PM

Is there anything left to test on this? Happy to help out if so.

I suppose convoys are the last big thing left to do.. currently with IRAI I've had some nightmare scenarios involving convoys in heavily patrolled areas, on one occasion having over 30 (!) Heavy Cruisers, DDs and Battleships circling me after an attack as any passing military convoys have gotten stuck in as well! Somewhat over the top methinks!

I'd be interested to know how the difficulty settings really work, as well. Currently if I attack a military convoy, they ALWAYS know exactly where I am, regardless of silent running, 170m depth and 1knot speed. Even with engines off they still 'see' me. It's getting to the point that it's not worth attacking a convoy of military craft as you've basically no chance whatsoever of escape.

I've tweaked the difficulty settings to match Sober's, but still get crucified if I even sneeze in a DDs direction. I'm not expecting to attack and slip away unnoticed, but surely there must be a way to tweak the values so there's at least a chance of being unheard at 170m, 1knot and silent running (which is the lowest/slowest possible afaik).

Also, I assume that if I'm very deep, silent and go all stop, I shouldn't be visible on their active sonar (too deep) and 99% invisible on passive sonar. I expect them to DC the last known position pretty heavily, but I've seen them do it for upwards of 24hrs plus! I thought 'playing possum' and stopping deep & silent was a fairly common uboat tactic... but it doesn't seem to work!

Suggestions?

Stormfly · 08-24-11, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0rpheus

Is there anything left to test on this? Happy to help out if so.

I suppose convoys are the last big thing left to do.. currently with IRAI I've had some nightmare scenarios involving convoys in heavily patrolled areas, on one occasion having over 30 (!) Heavy Cruisers, DDs and Battleships circling me after an attack as any passing military convoys have gotten stuck in as well! Somewhat over the top methinks!

I'd be interested to know how the difficulty settings really work, as well. Currently if I attack a military convoy, they ALWAYS know exactly where I am, regardless of silent running, 170m depth and 1knot speed. Even with engines off they still 'see' me. It's getting to the point that it's not worth attacking a convoy of military craft as you've basically no chance whatsoever of escape.

I've tweaked the difficulty settings to match Sober's, but still get crucified if I even sneeze in a DDs direction. I'm not expecting to attack and slip away unnoticed, but surely there must be a way to tweak the values so there's at least a chance of being unheard at 170m, 1knot and silent running (which is the lowest/slowest possible afaik).

Also, I assume that if I'm very deep, silent and go all stop, I shouldn't be visible on their active sonar (too deep) and 99% invisible on passive sonar. I expect them to DC the last known position pretty heavily, but I've seen them do it for upwards of 24hrs plus! I thought 'playing possum' and stopping deep & silent was a fairly common uboat tactic... but it doesn't seem to work!

Suggestions?

i use the same difficulty settings as Sober, and sometimes it is realy hard to escape as it was in reality, but over the time you learn your stuff...

say, which year you`re testing this, i did till end '42...

one remark:
"Also, I assume that if I'm very deep, silent and go all stop, I shouldn't be visible on their active sonar (too deep) and 99% invisible on passive sonar."

you assume wrong, the active sonar is reduced effective or unable to hit your sub if:

- you are out of detection range.
- You are horizontaly out of detection area.
- your are verticaly out of detection area because you are deep enough and the escort pinging you is close enough.
- your sub`s profile is small enough and far enough away.
- your hull`s skin is made of some secret materials.
- enemys sonar crew is unskilled or tired.
- type of enemy vessel and equipment.

...in your case and reason nr. 3 above means the active sonar beam have a limited down angle operating, which means, you may slip into it`s blind area if you`re deep enough and the escoprt is close enough.

The Problem begins here if they hunt you in a coordinated group, means one escort keep enough distanace, just for pinging you while you are deep and radio your position for other escorts dept charging you. It could also be, that 2 or 3 escorts do a cross ping job to direct some nice charges directly over your pos, before and after you.

also if youre a smart Kaleun, and they barly can ping/hear you, they try to wake you using large carpet dept charging tactics, then you just need the nerves to take some damage till they give up or run out of charges while presenting a very bad solution for them.

0rpheus · 08-24-11, 10:59 PM

Thanks for the reply Stormfly. I guess in terms of year we're talking no later than '42, as the farthest I've got so far is the second Mediterranean campaign.

Everything I know about Silent Hunter AI I know from SH4. This post, courtesy of Ducimus explains how the active sonar works in 3/4 and is what I base my questions on: http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

I'm assuming that things are the same in SH5 (if they're not then all my reasoning is flawed lol) - that is to say, below a certain depth active sonar is no use as you're too low for the ping to reflect from the boat. And like you said, you have to be vertically below the active sonar's area of effect and presenting as little aspect as possible. That much I understand.

Now in SH5, on the TAI the enemy active sonar is represented by the red cone, and passive by the yellowish circle. The lower you go, the smaller the red cone gets, until it disappears entirely. It's at this point that I would expect enemy active sonar to be useless, and for them to switch to the passive - which, if I'm doing one knot, at say 160 metres should make me damn hard to hear.

But in practice I'm not seeing this. Below Active Sonar depth, at one knot, 160m depth & silent running, they still ping and still follow me around like hawks, sometimes literally for 24+ hours - even though none display active sonar cones. So how are they detecting me? Is it solely on passive sonar and even at that depth/speed I'm still audible? Going any deeper is awkward as the sub won't keep depth past 170metres at 1 or even 2 knots (for some reason I don't understand, even though the hull is safe a little lower than that), and going all stop for any length of time often leads to me being crushed by the hull of a ship killed by collision while trying to DC me.

The carpet-charging tactics I could understand, and probably figure enough out from the TAI and DC pattern to know that's what was going on.. it's when they literally follow me like hawks at the lowest possible depth & speed, when their active is (theoretically) useless that's making me scratch my head... especially if playing possum doesn't/can't work.

What about thermal layers? I've never heard anyone mention it for 5, but it was often a key factor in SH4.

Deep Six · 08-25-11, 04:45 AM

@Orpheus, hey thanks for the link. In my time playing SH4 I never came across this info..... Kudos

Well I suppose that this does beg the question, is it the same for SH5 or have the Devs changed something? I seem to remember reading somewhere, that historically early on the "Tommies" information on the u-boat was incorrect as to how deep the boat could go, thus they were setting DC way to shallow anyways. It was'nt untill they had managed to capture an intact u-boat they were able to gain major tech on the boat itself and thus change there tactics.....But I'm not sure of the year of this incident.

Deep Six

Stormfly · 08-25-11, 07:59 AM

...regarding passive abilitys, if running with only 1 knot must not mean your RPM is low enough, what i do additional to silent running is set the subs speed to reduce engines not to exceed 50 RPM.

combine this with with sometimes stopped engines, and / or in detonating charges event advance speed to 4-5 knots for a short time using TDW`s deptcharge water distorbances. Also make use of the bold noise maker (release it after evading a precise attack run and the charges are exploding, instandly after release switch to silent running, change course and dept).

some escorts continue dropping charges on that bolds, some continue hunting you, but in many cases i manage to survive till they give up.

0rpheus · 08-25-11, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormfly

...regarding passive abilitys, if running with only 1 knot must not mean your RPM is low enough, what i do additional to silent running is set the subs speed to reduce engines not to exceed 50 RPM.

combine this with with sometimes stopped engines, and / or in detonating charges event advance speed to 4-5 knots for a short time using TDW`s deptcharge water dispondances. Also make use of the bold noise maker (release it after evading a precise attack run and the charges are exploding, instandly after release switch to silent running, change course and dept).

some escorts continue dropping charges on that bolds, some continue hunting you, but in many cases i manage to survive till they give up.

Hmm, ok. Shame there's no way (that I know of) to get a report on engine RPM in game... I guess you're doing this manually/by eye?

I do use TDW's DC Water Disturbances but once again I've not noticed the slightest bit of difference with it installed.

Not sure what year you get the first decoy launcher, although you can still activate it even without the BOLD early on - no idea if it actually does anything!

I'll try your methods later today and see how I get on.

Deep Six - no probs, hope it was useful! Re the depth of DCs it's been my experience (up to middle of the second Med campaign) that they'll DC to a depth of 100m or so... at 150/60 I rarely even get shaken around. Sure that'll change as the campaign progresses though.

Stormfly · 08-25-11, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0rpheus

Hmm, ok. Shame there's no way (that I know of) to get a report on engine RPM in game... I guess you're doing this manually/by eye?

yes, i manualy set speed using the knots gauge till the 3D RPM gauges shows below 50....

...also, in some cases it isnt needed to run like a chicken if you hear a single escort is pinging you (means no cross or double ping or high profile ping from the side), if a ping hit your sub must not mean that it is returned or usable from the enemy asdic operator, try to stay cool... until you hear a escort is about to make a good precise attack run

08-25-11, 04:45 AM	#4
Deep Six Ensign Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: England, Manchester. Posts: 235 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 0	@Orpheus, hey thanks for the link. In my time playing SH4 I never came across this info..... Kudos Well I suppose that this does beg the question, is it the same for SH5 or have the Devs changed something? I seem to remember reading somewhere, that historically early on the "Tommies" information on the u-boat was incorrect as to how deep the boat could go, thus they were setting DC way to shallow anyways. It was'nt untill they had managed to capture an intact u-boat they were able to gain major tech on the boat itself and thus change there tactics.....But I'm not sure of the year of this incident. Deep Six __________________

08-25-11, 07:59 AM	#5
Stormfly Serial Port Protector Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,424 Downloads: 370 Uploads: 0	...regarding passive abilitys, if running with only 1 knot must not mean your RPM is low enough, what i do additional to silent running is set the subs speed to reduce engines not to exceed 50 RPM. combine this with with sometimes stopped engines, and / or in detonating charges event advance speed to 4-5 knots for a short time using TDW`s deptcharge water distorbances. Also make use of the bold noise maker (release it after evading a precise attack run and the charges are exploding, instandly after release switch to silent running, change course and dept). some escorts continue dropping charges on that bolds, some continue hunting you, but in many cases i manage to survive till they give up. __________________ Stormy...... Last edited by Stormfly; 08-25-11 at 12:45 PM.

08-24-11, 05:48 PM	#1
0rpheus Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: UK Posts: 857 Downloads: 87 Uploads: 3	Is there anything left to test on this? Happy to help out if so. I suppose convoys are the last big thing left to do.. currently with IRAI I've had some nightmare scenarios involving convoys in heavily patrolled areas, on one occasion having over 30 (!) Heavy Cruisers, DDs and Battleships circling me after an attack as any passing military convoys have gotten stuck in as well! Somewhat over the top methinks! I'd be interested to know how the difficulty settings really work, as well. Currently if I attack a military convoy, they ALWAYS know exactly where I am, regardless of silent running, 170m depth and 1knot speed. Even with engines off they still 'see' me. It's getting to the point that it's not worth attacking a convoy of military craft as you've basically no chance whatsoever of escape. I've tweaked the difficulty settings to match Sober's, but still get crucified if I even sneeze in a DDs direction. I'm not expecting to attack and slip away unnoticed, but surely there must be a way to tweak the values so there's at least a chance of being unheard at 170m, 1knot and silent running (which is the lowest/slowest possible afaik). Also, I assume that if I'm very deep, silent and go all stop, I shouldn't be visible on their active sonar (too deep) and 99% invisible on passive sonar. I expect them to DC the last known position pretty heavily, but I've seen them do it for upwards of 24hrs plus! I thought 'playing possum' and stopping deep & silent was a fairly common uboat tactic... but it doesn't seem to work! Suggestions?

08-24-11, 10:59 PM	#3
0rpheus Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: UK Posts: 857 Downloads: 87 Uploads: 3	Thanks for the reply Stormfly. I guess in terms of year we're talking no later than '42, as the farthest I've got so far is the second Mediterranean campaign. Everything I know about Silent Hunter AI I know from SH4. This post, courtesy of Ducimus explains how the active sonar works in 3/4 and is what I base my questions on: http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm I'm assuming that things are the same in SH5 (if they're not then all my reasoning is flawed lol) - that is to say, below a certain depth active sonar is no use as you're too low for the ping to reflect from the boat. And like you said, you have to be vertically below the active sonar's area of effect and presenting as little aspect as possible. That much I understand. Now in SH5, on the TAI the enemy active sonar is represented by the red cone, and passive by the yellowish circle. The lower you go, the smaller the red cone gets, until it disappears entirely. It's at this point that I would expect enemy active sonar to be useless, and for them to switch to the passive - which, if I'm doing one knot, at say 160 metres should make me damn hard to hear. But in practice I'm not seeing this. Below Active Sonar depth, at one knot, 160m depth & silent running, they still ping and still follow me around like hawks, sometimes literally for 24+ hours - even though none display active sonar cones. So how are they detecting me? Is it solely on passive sonar and even at that depth/speed I'm still audible? Going any deeper is awkward as the sub won't keep depth past 170metres at 1 or even 2 knots (for some reason I don't understand, even though the hull is safe a little lower than that), and going all stop for any length of time often leads to me being crushed by the hull of a ship killed by collision while trying to DC me. The carpet-charging tactics I could understand, and probably figure enough out from the TAI and DC pattern to know that's what was going on.. it's when they literally follow me like hawks at the lowest possible depth & speed, when their active is (theoretically) useless that's making me scratch my head... especially if playing possum doesn't/can't work. What about thermal layers? I've never heard anyone mention it for 5, but it was often a key factor in SH4.