Special abilities question

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

I'll take the words of O'Kane, Fluckey, and Cutter(via Bauslog) over anything else because they were there, had no reason to lie and it is entirely possible.

Did you read my post? I carefully discussed the problems with anecdotal accounts, from both sides, and even linked to the Wiki page in which Fluckey was officially credited with a speed record, giving you the credit in the process. I don't question their integrity or their abilities. TorpX and I sort of reached a consensus on the problems both ways, and now here you are going back over the same ground. If you don't want to investigate with us, fine, but it looks to me like you're the gamers I was describing. You only look at one side because that's what you want to believe. So you completely ignore my last comments about how we'll never know for certain.

But, if you're going to insist on continuing this you need to explain what "150% overload means". Did they suddenly get 9750 horsepower out of an engine rated for 6500? It is a characteristic of all onboard speed measuring equipment to be increasingly inaccurate with increasing speed. Your car's speedometer is a victim of this, as is a mechanical air-speed indicator. Are the sub's measuring devises perfect? I said I don't know. I said I still have doubts, but that's part of my nature - I don't believe anything until I have hard facts, and in this case there don't seem to be any. Maybe they were right. Maybe they were wrong. I don't know, but I've studied enough details about how ships operate over the last two decades that I question how this could be accomplished, and I'll continue to do so. Believe what you want, but I've long held that any change to a game based on anything other than solid proof is a bad idea.

But the developers allow it, and you are free to use it and to justify it however you want. I only stated my opinion and gave my reasons, nothing more.

[EricW]

OMFG, You guys are still going off on this..........
I can see wanting some form of proof for these things, personally I don't have the time or desire to find another copy of Clear the Bridge to list out page numbers. I'm glad its kinda settled, maybe.

I just got off a very disappointing attack involving a lone Nagaro, six prematures, two duds and two misses......all ten tubes.

special abilities right here

Its a GAME- albeit my fave.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Did you read my post? I carefully discussed the problems with anecdotal accounts, from both sides, and even linked to the Wiki page in which Fluckey was officially credited with a speed record, giving you the credit in the process. I don't question their integrity or their abilities. TorpX and I sort of reached a consensus on the problems both ways, and now here you are going back over the same ground. If you don't want to investigate with us, fine, but it looks to me like you're the gamers I was describing. You only look at one side because that's what you want to believe. So you completely ignore my last comments about how we'll never know for certain.

But, if you're going to insist on continuing this you need to explain what "150% overload means". Did they suddenly get 9750 horsepower out of an engine rated for 6500? It is a characteristic of all onboard speed measuring equipment to be increasingly inaccurate with increasing speed. Your car's speedometer is a victim of this, as is a mechanical air-speed indicator. Are the sub's measuring devises perfect? I said I don't know. I said I still have doubts, but that's part of my nature - I don't believe anything until I have hard facts, and in this case there don't seem to be any. Maybe they were right. Maybe they were wrong. I don't know, but I've studied enough details about how ships operate over the last two decades that I question how this could be accomplished, and I'll continue to do so. Believe what you want, but I've long held that any change to a game based on anything other than solid proof is a bad idea.

But the developers allow it, and you are free to use it and to justify it however you want. I only stated my opinion and gave my reasons, nothing more.

No Steve, I was not ignoring your post.I am no "gamer" and it's not that I believe in it because I want it to be true, I feel that it is based on the evidence.The evidence is that several highly respected skippers stated in writing that they did this, in addition that no crewmember or anyone else has disputed this(as far as I can tell) in the many years that have passed since these incidents occured.Additionally, there was evidence of them moving faster such as Seahorse's encounter with the TF one June 15, 1944.The Seahorse who on paper could only make 20.25 knots yet were able to keep up with a TF or battleships, cruisers, destroyers(carriers I think, can not recall) that were(if I recall correctly) making 25-26 knots.Now running full bore at the paper speed of 20.25, they wouldnt be able to keep them in sight for long, yet when they pushed their engines, they were making 22 or so knots, were able to keep them in sight at a distance for a while until had to take the strain off less they do serious damage.

The Barb would be another example.Barb had a destroyer/PB type that was closing fast and they could not open the distance, the small amount of extra speed enabled them to pull away.

So if the instruments were incorrect and they were not making the speeds they recorded then most likely Seahorse would not have been able to keep up and Barb would not have been able to get away.I almost forgot Tang, who would not have been able to cover such a large area so quickly when rescuing pilots.

I get your point of view and skepticism, I normally share it with just about anything but feel it's unwarranted here because if you count the word of highly respected naval officers and crew, the time that has elapsed without dispute(again that I know of), and again, the results.Seahorse kept up while running flat out, Barb escaped.Tang was able to cover enough ocean to rescue many aviators and aircrew shot down during the Truk raid.I am sure other boats in the war operated at higher speeds, possibe some outside the Gato/Balao/Tench classes than they were supposed to be able to accomplish and odds are some may have had incorrect readings but we know of these three due to their stellar war records and books.The results speak for themselves in the well documented cases.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

The evidence is that several highly respected skippers stated in writing that they did this, in addition that no crewmember or anyone else has disputed this(as far as I can tell) in the many years that have passed since these incidents occured.

How would they? Why would they doubt their skipper's word, if they ever even knew about the report?

Additionally, there was evidence of them moving faster such as Seahorse's encounter with the TF one June 15, 1944.The Seahorse who on paper could only make 20.25 knots yet were able to keep up with a TF or battleships, cruisers, destroyers(carriers I think, can not recall) that were(if I recall correctly) making 25-26 knots.

Twenty-six? Now I'm worried. A task force normally cruises at 15 knots. If they're going somewhere in a hurry they can do 30. Neither of those is 22 or 26.

Now running full bore at the paper speed of 20.25, they wouldnt be able to keep them in sight for long, yet when they pushed their engines, they were making 22 or so knots, were able to keep them in sight at a distance for a while until had to take the strain off less they do serious damage.

Sorry, but which is it, 26 or 22? Twenty-two I can accept, even though I'm still doubtful.

The Barb would be another example.Barb had a destroyer/PB type that was closing fast and they could not open the distance, the small amount of extra speed enabled them to pull away.

If it was a destroyer then it could make 36 knots on a good day. If it was a patrol boat, what kind? Not one of the Japanese patrol boat classes could reach 20 knots, let alone 22.
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/a/Patrol_Boats.htm

Also, if there was a Japanese submarine chaser that could make 22-23 knots, what shape was this one in? Fouled bottoms slow ships down. Engines in need of serviceing slow ships down.
Again, I'm not saying it didn't happen, or that it couldn't happen, but you see my problem?

I get your point of view and skepticism, I normally share it with just about anything but feel it's unwarranted here because if you count the word of highly respected naval officers and crew, the time that has elapsed without dispute(again that I know of), and again, the results. Seahorse kept up while running flat out, Barb escaped.

Possibly it wasn't disputed for the simple reason that nobody thought of it. On the other hand it could be true.

Tang was able to cover enough ocean to rescue many aviators and aircrew shot down during the Truk raid.

It's been too many years since I read that account. Did they go everywhere at flank speed? While this would burn a lot of fuel, late in the war it might be warranted.

I am sure other boats in the war operated at higher speeds, possibe some outside the Gato/Balao/Tench classes than they were supposed to be able to accomplish and odds are some may have had incorrect readings but we know of these three due to their stellar war records and books.

Being sure about other boats isn't recorded data. I've been sure about a lot of things in my life, and been wrong in many cases. Don't be sure unless you have facts in hand.

The results speak for themselves in the well documented cases.

Not really, and for the reasons I've just cited. Anecdotal evidence, even from the most reliable sources, can only take you so far.

[TorpX]

I hesitate to add anymore to this, lest it turn into a prolonged argument. TBH, I'm not all that invested in the crew special ability thing, but I can think of a few possibilities that could explain why the boats were able to substantially exceed their "maximum" speed.

1. The boats had their fairwaters cut down. Displacement reduced.

2. New screws. The Tang had high-tech screws designed to reduce cavitation and make the boat quieter.

3. Possibly, the "maximum" speed was based on what power the diesels could supply (full speed), and not what power the engines and battery could supply (flank speed). This flank speed could only be sustained for a limited period regardless of the diesels condition, as the battery would discharge and the speed would fall off. This might be what the "150 % overload" means; diesel + battery power = 150% diesel power alone.

Just a possibility.

[Sailor Steve]

Good points. My final answer is "I don't know". Reducing weight would obviously help a little, but hydrodynamic drag is the real limiting factor, and the fineness (length-beam) ratio isn't going to change, and that's the real cause of limitations to top speed. Your points about the engines and the batteries make sense. I have no idea how much actual increase you would get that way, but the engines are rated at 6500 hp and the electric motors rated at 2740 hp, which is 42%, which would not get a 42% increase in speed but might account for an extra two knots. But if that was really possible you probably wouldn't need a 'special ability' to do it, just a competent engineer. Game-wise, increased chance of a breakdown plus having your batteries drain at the same time might be a fair trade-off. One set of worries in exchange for another. Too bad these games don't take things like that into acccount.

[Rockin Robbins]

The diesels were rated at a certain horsepower at a certain RPM limit. By ignoring the limit and bypassing the governors it was possible to run the engines faster than they were safely rated and so produce more than 100% rated power. For an unknown length of time at the expense of an unknown amount of serviceable or possibly non-serviceable damage.

That is the source of the extra power. The diesels did not connect to the drive shafts at all. They strictly supplied power to the batteries and/or electric motors, which were all that powered the sub.

Cutting down the fairwaters was for visibility on the surface. There was very little difference in displacement because the fairwater filled with water when the sub submerged. If anything, the irregular shape of the resulting conning tower would have added more drag to compensate for the missing weight of the steel for very little change in boat handling.

When you reduce cavitation you generally increase thrust. That may have had a little effect. But the fact that the stated advantage was to cut down on noise kind of implies that speed gains were minimal.