Top Nazi Rudolf Hess exhumed from 'pilgrimage' grave

[MH]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

Hi NeonSamurai,
Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Sincerely
ZeeWolf

I really don't need you to believe anything.
What i would like is radical left stopping attacking Jews for being Zionist imperialist capitalist.
On another hand right wing telling us that we are communist that want to take over the world.
If both parties are doing that the probably Jews are doings something the right way.

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

Hi NeonSamurai,
Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Sincerely
ZeeWolf

You can ultimately believe what you want. I do not know what you refer to in the second part (the anti holocaust denial laws maybe?). However if you present or promote arguments which I view to be flawed, false, or inaccurate, I will certainly engage you on those arguments. I have no problem with honest debate, the problem though is most holocaust deniers in my experience do not wish to enter into honest debate. They have an agenda they wish to promote, and it frequently hinges around antisemitism.

The holocaust is something I have done a lot of personal research into, as it is something I do not understand and found hard to believe in fully. I reference Nizkor, as their information to the best of my own knowledge is accurate and honest, but it is not my sole source of information, not by a long shot. It is however easily accessible by everyone.

Ultimately it is up to you to decide if you wish to research the subject yourself, and do so in an honest unbiased fashion.

Spewing hate speech or other such nonsense however will get you into trouble pretty fast at Subsim.


PS. for those curious, I am not Jewish. I am however a scientist and do my best to be open-minded to any argument. My training makes it very easy for me to spot the flaws and falsities in the denial literature.

[Gerald]

Why not stop at the Topic, it's hard? This Post originally had a purpose, as you well know .. so why mix in other things which are not directly related to what was intended .... and it has, as we know, punctuated by troll on the road again....

[ZeeWolf]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

You can ultimately believe what you want. I do not know what you refer to in the second part (the anti holocaust denial laws maybe?). However if you present or promote arguments which I view to be flawed, false, or inaccurate, I will certainly engage you on those arguments. I have no problem with honest debate, the problem though is most holocaust deniers in my experience do not wish to enter into honest debate. They have an agenda they wish to promote, and it frequently hinges around antisemitism.

The holocaust is something I have done a lot of personal research into, as it is something I do not understand and found hard to believe in fully. I reference Nizkor, as their information to the best of my own knowledge is accurate and honest, but it is not my sole source of information, not by a long shot. It is however easily accessible by everyone.

Ultimately it is up to you to decide if you wish to research the subject yourself, and do so in an honest unbiased fashion.

Spewing hate speech or other such nonsense however will get you into trouble pretty fast at Subsim.


PS. for those curious, I am not Jewish. I am however a scientist and do my best to be open-minded to any argument. My training makes it very easy for me to spot the flaws and falsities in the denial literature.

That fine NeonSam,
I was reading the page on Fred Leuchter and his credibility and on his testimony. Then I came across and read this page:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/...rsecution.html

I became outraged how this man was treated. There was nothing I read
that would even begin to justify this mans treatment no matter what he
said. Whether under oath on the witness stand or in public. If this Nizkor
organization is even remotely connected to those who carry out this
treatment on a man or condone such behavior or anyone who this crowd
denounces as a "Holocaust Denier" it totally undermines them as far as I
am concerned.
You see I became a Christian after I heard that the disciples of Christ
where persecuted after the death and resurrection of Jesus. And their
crime - was saying publicly "Jesus rose from the dead!" No body I thought
would endure that level of persecution the disciples faced for a lie.
Therefore I hope you can understand my point here with Mr. Leuchter

Sincerely,
ZeeWolf

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Vendor

Why not stop at the Topic, it's hard? This Post originally had a purpose, as you well know .. so why mix in other things which are not directly related to what was intended .... and it has, as we know, punctuated by troll on the road again....

Good point, Vendor.

[Betonov]

Why not dig out all the nazi's and throw their reamins in the middle of the Atlantic. If the skinheads want to make a pilgrimage, let them swim there

[Oberon]

Hate is hate. Be it hate for Jews, hate for Nazis, hate for holocaust deniers, it's all hate and it's all counter-productive and just leads to more hate and suffering. I'm not saying forgive and forget, nor am I saying don't make sure it never happens again, but there has to be a different way than to persecute people because of their beliefs, be it Jewish or Neo-Nazi.

[ZeeWolf]

Originally Posted by Hottentot

Most likely not. It shows poor academic behavior to laugh at the beliefs of people and I'm sure Neon is academic enough to know that. Instead, at least where I'm from, it's the lines like those you just wrote, that tend to make people public laughing stocks.

Ok fine, I am from the USA. And if I am a laughing stock from where you are from please stay there. I am no angel of light nor am I a genus academic like so many (I find) pretend to be. But I do have a back bone, therefore denounce me as one refusing to cow like whimpering dog for his masters approval.

ZeeWolf

[ZeeWolf]

Originally Posted by August

Would you be ridiculed if you tried to claim that the moon is made of green cheese? Of course you would. This is what happens when people stubbornly retain beliefs in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

You are trying to excuse, if not the most, then certainly one of most evil ideologies ever created by man. The nazis are hated with good reason. If you want to defend them then expect to be hated as well.

August where I am from, it is common for those who hate nazis as much you
do to also hate heterosexuals too. And yes they hate nazis for good reason.
As much as they hate anything or anyone who call into question their sick perverted behavior.

ZeeWolf

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

Ok fine, I am from the USA. And if I am a laughing stock from where you are from please stay there.

My, are we sensitive today, dearie. Didn't even say "Hello Hottentot". Tsk, tsk.

I am no angel of light nor am I a genus academic like so many (I find) pretend to be.

What happened to your "45 years of study"?

I'm a history major. I'm not a genius, nor an angel, but being academic in this subject is not something I need to pretend.

But I do have a back bone, therefore denounce me as one refusing to cow like whimpering dog for his masters approval.

Did you hear the whistling? That was the point flying way over your head. So I'll put this in simple terms: you are not getting laughed at for what you believe in. You are getting laughed at for playing a martyr and not answering the arguments made against your case.

[ZeeWolf]

Originally Posted by MH

I really don't need you to believe anything.
What i would like is radical left stopping attacking Jews for being Zionist imperialist capitalist.
On another hand right wing telling us that we are communist that want to take over the world.
If both parties are doing that the probably Jews are doings something the right way.

Oh, I see, you want the entire world see you as you think you are. As the
"All knowing, all caring Holy one's of Israel " totally above even a hint of sin. Right!
Please remember, it was God All Mighty that utterly destroyed the temple
in 70 AD and used the Romans as an interment of HIS wrath. And do not
forget, God left that wailing wall for a reason.


ZeeWolf

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

August where I am from, it is common for those who hate nazis as much you
do to also hate heterosexuals too. And yes they hate nazis for good reason.
As much as they hate anything or anyone who call into question their sick perverted behavior.

ZeeWolf

dude, if you are going to argue an unpopular minority viewpoint, then it is important that you keep your balance, and also to know when to bow out gracefully.

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

Oh, I see, you want the entire world see you as you think you are. As the
"All knowing, all caring Holy one's of Israel " totally above even a hint of sin. Right!
Please remember, it was God All Mighty that utterly destroyed the temple
in 70 AD and used the Romans as an interment of HIS wrath. And do not
forget, God left that wailing wall for a reason.


ZeeWolf

woops, too late!

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

That fine NeonSam,
I was reading the page on Fred Leuchter and his credibility and on his testimony. Then I came across and read this page:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/...rsecution.html

I became outraged how this man was treated. There was nothing I read
that would even begin to justify this mans treatment no matter what he
said. Whether under oath on the witness stand or in public. If this Nizkor
organization is even remotely connected to those who carry out this
treatment on a man or condone such behavior or anyone who this crowd
denounces as a "Holocaust Denier" it totally undermines them as far as I
am concerned.

Well for one thing I am very wary as to the veracity of anything coming from the IHR, and claims made by Fred Leuchter. He has already been proven to be a liar and a fraud in court. So his claims of persecution are also suspect. I have no doubt that he has not always been treated in the nicest fashion by people. But then he is associated with a known publisher of hate material (which that comes from also), and from all external evidence appears to be racist/antisemitic himself. So there will be people who will take a strong dislike to him. He is also certainly strongly motivated to lie about being persecuted, as it garners him attention and sympathy and helps spread his message.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/...uchter-05.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/...hter-0195.html

About the IHR
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/ihr/ihr-faq-01.html


One thing I will point out, that you may have noticed, is that Nizkor publishes everything, including the holocaust denial material. You cannot say the same for any of the denial sites. This is the difference between honest discussion and debate, and what most holocaust deniers do, which is spread their own agenda (which unsurprisingly is hate related).

Like I said, I have no problem with open honest debate. I also prefer to refute claims rather than simply try to stifle them. Hence why I left the utter garbage posted by 'the_truth', rather than censoring it. I do however have little tolerance for blatant hate speech.

I am not trying to cow you or anything either, and I am only master of myself. I present rational arguments to your points when I disagree.

You see I became a Christian after I heard that the disciples of Christ
where persecuted after the death and resurrection of Jesus. And their
crime - was saying publicly "Jesus rose from the dead!" No body I thought
would endure that level of persecution the disciples faced for a lie.
Therefore I hope you can understand my point here with Mr. Leuchter

Sincerely,
ZeeWolf

People do all the time though, on matters that they take on faith. All religions and organizations have their martyrs. People also do similar for political views (look at all the ardent nazi's, or the SS, many of whom fought to the death for their views). People are capable of an infinite level of self delusion in the end, and can latch on to anything no matter how absurd it appears to others.

I am not saying, though, that Jesus is or is not a lie, as I try not to stray too far into maters of religion. At least as long as said religion does not try to impose itself on me, or try to take away my own rights.

P.S. want to talk about persecution, take a look at the level of persecution many atheists put up with, even in this day and age.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by OTH

I see Subsim is staying classy.

As far as Hess, I'm glad they cremated and spread his remains in the sea. There are thousands of neo nazis in Germany who rally around his grave and his memory, people outside Europe don't seem to have an idea of the extent of the problem.

Oh look, our favorite troll is back again, and doesn't even try to disguise himself.