Top Nazi Rudolf Hess exhumed from 'pilgrimage' grave

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

Hi NoenSamurai,
I check out your link and I found it interesting. But I remember, when I was
just a little feller of seeing those horrible pictures of what those nazis did and
couple of images (I will never forget) where of shrunken human heads and soap
made from little Jewish children that the SS used to wash with.
Both Items presented as evidence at the Nuremberg trials.

When dealing with the holocaust there are aspects of it which are indeed myth, or very isolated instances. The human soap one is one example.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techn...l/soap-01.html

To date and to my knowledge there is only one example of soap made from human fat, and that this was made experimentally.. see
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/stutthof/
The "Pure Jewish Fat" soap story is myth though.

As for the lampshades and other stuff, this covers that.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techn...y-koch-01.html


There is however plenty of evidence that murder occurred on a massive and organized scale.

For example, an archaeological investigation of the Aktion Reinhard death camp, Belzec (warning, the contents, though non photographic, are gruesome).
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/...logical_Report

[ZeeWolf]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

When dealing with the holocaust there are aspects of it which are indeed myth, or very isolated instances. The human soap one is one example.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techn...l/soap-01.html

To date and to my knowledge there is only one example of soap made from human fat, and that this was made experimentally.. see
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/stutthof/
The "Pure Jewish Fat" soap story is myth though.

As for the lampshades and other stuff, this covers that.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techn...y-koch-01.html


There is however plenty of evidence that murder occurred on a massive and organized scale.

For example, an archaeological investigation of the Aktion Reinhard death camp, Belzec (warning, the contents, though non photographic, are gruesome).
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/...logical_Report

Thanks Neon Sam,
I read the soap and lampshade articles and I must say, the gruesome details given by the witnesses
(especially in the numerous links with the soap ) is stunning.
Then to read that these stories are lies - cast more doubt then sheds light.
Then there was the statement about the lampshades. This to lacks credibility now we have the
scientific methods to determine enormous forensic data that should be used to help identify these people.
But what is glaring with these accounts are the lack of wide spread military or government involvement that
is the foundation of the holocaust's case.
These kinds of stories are great for the physiological-warfare units that where tasked with the planned
"collective guilt" agenda on the entire population of post-war Germany but does little to bolster the
"nazi death camp industry" or death on an industrial scale, at least in my view.
Of course the images of the dead people who where certainly starved is
compelling but when you ask the question - how where the camps supplied?
The answer might be the camps rely on the railroads being the major support method.
And then when you consider the massive bombing campaign that was raging for the last 5 months of the war - why wouldn't
there be mass starvation in the camps filled with the enemies of the state.
Camps that where over capacity is some camps ten fold.
So, basically the holocaust asserts that millions where murdered in gas chambers between early42 - late 1943.
Then the US and Soviets having found millions dead in April of 1945 does not add up. I am not ready to trust
any account given that ignores the effect the allied terror bombing had at producing that insane hell that was the last months of Nazi Germany.

Zeewolf

[MH]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

Thanks Neon Sam,
I read the soap and lampshade articles and I must say, the gruesome details given by the witnesses
(especially in the numerous links with the soap ) is stunning.
Then to read that these stories are lies - cast more doubt then sheds light.
Then there was the statement about the lampshades. This to lacks credibility now we have the
scientific methods to determine enormous forensic data that should be used to help identify these people.
But what is glaring with these accounts are the lack of wide spread military or government involvement that
is the foundation of the holocaust's case.
These kinds of stories are great for the physiological-warfare units that where tasked with the planned
"collective guilt" agenda on the entire population of post-war Germany but does little to bolster the
"nazi death camp industry" or death on an industrial scale, at least in my view.
Of course the images of the dead people who where certainly starved is
compelling but when you ask the question - how where the camps supplied?
The answer might be the camps rely on the railroads being the major support method.
And then when you consider the massive bombing campaign that was raging for the last 5 months of the war - why wouldn't
there be mass starvation in the camps filled with the enemies of the state.
Camps that where over capacity is some camps ten fold.
So, basically the holocaust asserts that millions where murdered in gas chambers between early42 - late 1943.
Then the US and Soviets having found millions dead in April of 1945 does not add up. I am not ready to trust
any account given that ignores the effect the allied terror bombing had at producing that insane hell that was the last months of Nazi Germany.

Zeewolf

.. read some more history.
Not just Irving's stuff..
You might also find out that there was no problem in supplying POW camps populated by British and Americans.
There had been occasional interruptions but all was relatively well there till end of the war.
The east was a place where all crazy things happened even though it was least affected by the allied bombings.

[ZeeWolf]

Originally Posted by MH

.. read some more history.
Not just Irving's stuff..
You might also find out that there was no problem in supplying POW camps populated by British and Americans.
There had been occasional interruptions but all was relatively well there till end of the war.
The east was a place where all crazy things happened even though it was least affected by the allied bombings.

Ok you have a point but you failed to mention the Soviet POWs. You see our
Soviet allies stated emphatically "The Soviet Union has no Prisoners of War". Stalin refused to recognize his own troops who surrendered to the
Germans. So Germany. now with close to 5 million Russian troops taken from the field of battle (as POWs) are forced to deal with them without the help of there wonderful government or the benefits of the enormous aid rendered by the international Red Cross. The German fighting forces on the eastern front had more Russian POWs feed than German troops.
And as a footnote the Red Cross was a God send and made a very interesting report that stated the death rate of displace peoples after May 1945. It said the death rate remained steady for a full year after the fall of Berlin. I will find the link to that report if you are interested and post it.
Moreover, the condition of the US and UK troops are proof there was cooperation between fighting nations. Namely Germany England and America
concerning the treatment of POWs.
But if you would read some history you would know that America had penicillin. Which was considered in that day a miracle drug. The US could have shared through the Red Cross that would have saved massive numbers of people. Also the US had the cure for the murderous disease of Typhus. The disease responsible for the greatest amount of death in the concentration camps. Typhus by the way is why the Germans used Zyclon B and needed the disinfectant gas chambers as well as the crematoriums. That is how they attempted to deal with this horrendous epidemic of typhus that raged through the camps.

ZeeWolf

[joea]

Originally Posted by OTH

I see Subsim is staying classy.

As far as Hess, I'm glad they cremated and spread his remains in the sea. There are thousands of neo nazis in Germany who rally around his grave and his memory, people outside Europe don't seem to have an idea of the extent of the problem.

Yea.

Right thing to do-look at the mayhem these people can cause.

Zeewolf you need to study a bit more-there is more research coming out just on the Soviet POW issue let alone all the material that refutes the other crap you spout.

[ZeeWolf]

Originally Posted by joea

Yea.

Right thing to do-look at the mayhem these people can cause.

Zeewolf you need to study a bit more-there is more research coming out just on the Soviet POW issue let alone all the material that refutes the other crap you spout.

Listen joe'sa I do not spout,
If you have info you would like me to consider on any issue you have contention with
and where I specifically made a comment then you can provide a link or reference that
can help me become as enlighten as you or think you are. I promise you I will read it and if I am wrong will
change what I believe. Now, do you understand that?

ZeeWolf

[joegrundman]

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

they don't? oy vey!

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

Typhus by the way is why the Germans used Zyclon B and needed the disinfectant gas chambers as well as the crematoriums. That is how they attempted to deal with this horrendous epidemic of typhus that raged through the camps.

ZeeWolf

Yes they did use Zyclon B for fumigation purposes. The chambers they used to do that in still survive in Auschwitz-Birkenau. But they are quite different from the killing chambers used in Krema's II - V. For one thing chambers used to delouse clothing were very small, and the concentration of Zyclon B used was very high, so high that the walls of the delousing chambers are stained blue. The gas chambers in the Krema's however were very large, far too large to effectively fumigate clothing. Also the levels of Zyclon B are much much lower (though still detectable in the walls even today).

Some deniers have proposed that the gas was used to disinfect these rooms as morgues. But that is utterly absurd, as Zyclon B has zero effect on bacteria or viruses. Insects are also highly resistant to it, whereas mammals are very vulnerable to it. This is why you have the concentration differences in the two chambers.

Details about the Krema's of Auschwitz

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/


Also I should point out that Auschwitz was a later camp, and not purpose built entirely for extermination. Even Auschwitz-Birkenau was not a fully dedicated killing center, but part concentration camp (and part extermination camp), along with having a 'medical' center for performing experiments. There were also many other satellite camps (50 something), which were slave labor camps.

The earlier Aktion Reinhard camps however were pure purpose built killing centers consisting primarily of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. Combined they killed more people than Auschwitz (depending on estimates, Treblinka alone comes close to Auschwitz-Birkenau).

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/reinhard/index.html



As for witnesses, yes witnesses can be unreliable, and yes you have to be careful with what you accept as testimony. But just because witnesses are unreliable, it does not automatically invalidate everything they say (particularly if dealing with large numbers of witnesses saying the same things). It also does not mean that the witnesses are being dishonest if there are holes or errors in their memories. Memory is a rather volatile thing, neither perimant, nor especially accurate. Memory is encoded with emotions, and is frequently incomplete. Also extreme stress can distort memory, or block memory from forming (or also make you never forget no matter how much you want to).


Anyhow, if you are serious about examining the holocaust and your own views on it. the nizkor site has everything you will need. I suggest starting with the 66 questions and answers section first, then moving on to techniques of holocaust denial.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/

At the surface, a lot of holocaust denial material seems valid and logical, but do any digging and you will find their claims fall to pieces very rapidly, and that their science is not science at all.




Ok one last comment in general. One thing that always bugs me about people and the holocaust, is the assumption that 'we' could never do such a thing, and that everyone involved were inhuman monsters. Both are false. Any group of people is capable of genocide (and have done such), and most of the people involved in committing the holocaust were average every day people. The commandant of Auschwitz for example, Hoess, was an animal lover, a family man, and the like. Some later turned into monsters, due to the environment, and of course there were other more corrupt and psychopathic individuals (which these places would attract).

But the simple fact of the matter is, this could happen anywhere, and be perpetrated by anyone, be they African, Asian, European, American, Canadian or what have you. It just takes the right circumstances.

[Hottentot]

Oh noes! The master of masters got brigged! Now I will never get answer to my question! Who is behind this communist jew conspiracy?!

[NeonSamurai]

Oh yes and to the zombie that keeps coming back. Try learning how to read Hebrew before posting blatant nonsense from racist sites. I find it especially funny that you call us sheep, when you can't even post your own material or do your own research, but just copy paste a bunch of easily disprovable garbage. Baaa yourself

http://talmud.faithweb.com/

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Oh yes and to the zombie that keeps coming back. Try learning how to read Hebrew before posting blatant nonsense from racist sites. I find it especially funny that you call us sheep, when you can't even post your own material or do your own research, but just copy paste a bunch of easily disprovable garbage. Baaa yourself

http://talmud.faithweb.com/

Good measure Neon, to let him "cool" down,

[ZeeWolf]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Yes they did use Zyclon B for fumigation purposes. The chambers they used to do that in still survive in Auschwitz-Birkenau. But they are quite different from the killing chambers used in Krema's II - V. For one thing chambers used to delouse clothing were very small, and the concentration of Zyclon B used was very high, so high that the walls of the delousing chambers are stained blue. The gas chambers in the Krema's however were very large, far too large to effectively fumigate clothing. Also the levels of Zyclon B are much much lower (though still detectable in the walls even today).

Some deniers have proposed that the gas was used to disinfect these rooms as morgues. But that is utterly absurd, as Zyclon B has zero effect on bacteria or viruses. Insects are also highly resistant to it, whereas mammals are very vulnerable to it. This is why you have the concentration differences in the two chambers.

Details about the Krema's of Auschwitz

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/


Also I should point out that Auschwitz was a later camp, and not purpose built entirely for extermination. Even Auschwitz-Birkenau was not a fully dedicated killing center, but part concentration camp (and part extermination camp), along with having a 'medical' center for performing experiments. There were also many other satellite camps (50 something), which were slave labor camps.

The earlier Aktion Reinhard camps however were pure purpose built killing centers consisting primarily of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka. Combined they killed more people than Auschwitz (depending on estimates, Treblinka alone comes close to Auschwitz-Birkenau).

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/reinhard/index.html



As for witnesses, yes witnesses can be unreliable, and yes you have to be careful with what you accept as testimony. But just because witnesses are unreliable, it does not automatically invalidate everything they say (particularly if dealing with large numbers of witnesses saying the same things). It also does not mean that the witnesses are being dishonest if there are holes or errors in their memories. Memory is a rather volatile thing, neither perimant, nor especially accurate. Memory is encoded with emotions, and is frequently incomplete. Also extreme stress can distort memory, or block memory from forming (or also make you never forget no matter how much you want to).


Anyhow, if you are serious about examining the holocaust and your own views on it. the nizkor site has everything you will need. I suggest starting with the 66 questions and answers section first, then moving on to techniques of holocaust denial.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/

At the surface, a lot of holocaust denial material seems valid and logical, but do any digging and you will find their claims fall to pieces very rapidly, and that their science is not science at all.




Ok one last comment in general. One thing that always bugs me about people and the holocaust, is the assumption that 'we' could never do such a thing, and that everyone involved were inhuman monsters. Both are false. Any group of people is capable of genocide (and have done such), and most of the people involved in committing the holocaust were average every day people. The commandant of Auschwitz for example, Hoess, was an animal lover, a family man, and the like. Some later turned into monsters, due to the environment, and of course there were other more corrupt and psychopathic individuals (which these places would attract).

But the simple fact of the matter is, this could happen anywhere, and be perpetrated by anyone, be they African, Asian, European, American, Canadian or what have you. It just takes the right circumstances.

Hi NeonSamurai,
Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Sincerely
ZeeWolf

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Most likely not. It shows poor academic behavior to laugh at the beliefs of people and I'm sure Neon is academic enough to know that. Instead, at least where I'm from, it's the lines like those you just wrote, that tend to make people public laughing stocks.

[August]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

Hi NeonSamurai,
Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Sincerely
ZeeWolf

Would you be ridiculed if you tried to claim that the moon is made of green cheese? Of course you would. This is what happens when people stubbornly retain beliefs in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

You are trying to excuse, if not the most, then certainly one of most evil ideologies ever created by man. The nazis are hated with good reason. If you want to defend them then expect to be hated as well.

[MH]

Originally Posted by ZeeWolf

Hi NeonSamurai,
Is there punishment if I do not choose to believe the nizkor organization?
Will I suffer retaliation (whether overt or covert)? Will I be put on a list (secret or public) that will make me fair game for total financial or professional destruction? Will I be bard, hounded, persecuted or harmed in any way shape or form for rejecting to toe the line that this nizkor organization presents? Will I be disrespected, open to ridicule, derision or any kind of unkind or hateful remarks or treatment from any quarter?
By you or anyone you know who maybe waiting to ponce on me.

Sincerely
ZeeWolf

I really don't need you to believe anything.
What i would like is radical left stopping attacking Jews for being Zionist imperialist capitalist.
On another hand right wing telling us that we are communist that want to take over the world.
If both parties are doing that the probably Jews are doings something the right way.