Periscope ranging seems ridiculous....

[PortsmouthProwler]

Originally Posted by Pisces

Did you take a speed average over multiple plots? 3 minute plots are too coarse to rely on if you shoot at anything over point blank range.

It is also important how far away those plots were when you took them. At 10 nm distance 1 degree of bearing is 350 yards wide. The target could have been anywhere in that 350 yards. There goes your 100 yard=1 knot rule flying out of the window.

???

100 yards per minute (I assume that is meant) times 60 minutes is 6,000 yards in an hour which is very close to 3 nautical miles an hour, i. e., 3 knots. Unless you meant three minutes...

Three minute plots? Why? More data? The futz factor in the range alone introduces enough error. Personally, I don't like to keep the scope up for very long, it does not pay to advertise.

I have the chart symbols on, but only for approaches. I don't correct off the chart, I go by eyeball.

I don't play as much as I used to, and use GFO when I do. Please let me wax eloquent:

* Numbah One: use common sense and Keep It Simple, Simon. I'm trying to enjoy a realistic experience. So, using my knowledge of the USN sub war in the Pacific (not inconsiderable, if I may), I try to have a 'realistic' approach and shoot. Oh, 82% Real, FWIW.

* Get ahead of them and ambush the enemy. Wait for them to walk into your parlor. Make everything as favorable as you can.

* Pick 'em up on radar, get ahead, cruise slowly to the meet. At the right time, drop the boat to radar depth. Track 'em, get a feel for speed. Confirm the 'Slow', 'Medium', messages on the radar icon (yes, I do use the 'on-chart' radar icons - that's my team plotting). Speed. AoB should be a snap, really, and don't sweat the angles, Pythogaros, as you'll see in a sec, within even 15 degrees can be good enough.

* OK, you're at 43 feet. Get the heck down at the right time. You didn't keep the scope up from last Wednesday, did you? Good. Go to 58 feet. Listen to Mr. Sonar, he is your friend, and yes, I use the sonar lines, that's my team again.

* You now are in a very good position to know where they are, how they're pointing, and how fast they're approaching. You are on Silent, right? Good skipper.

* Put your scope up and check out reality against Mr. Sonar. Pick out the best, usually closest, target. All else equal, this is the rule, take the closest, surest target. Do this quickly, very quickly. Get that target in your visual memory, while you lock and punch the Keeper. Put the scope down if it takes more than two Hail Marys.

* ID the target, put the scope back up, if applicable, lock, enter ID, pull Stad down, range her. Put in your best guess to AoB, check out the bow wake, keep in mind what the heck it is, what the intelligence said way back when about the convoy speed - most speeds are between 4 to 9 kts, maybe 12 once in a great while, but the big secret is...

* you did the approach right and you are Deadly Close, under a 1,000 yards, preferably 800, maybe 650. Being George Grider IV, you already have the torps set to Fast and you don't worry about depth settings too much, you already set them to Flavor of the Month two days ago.

* Put the spread from 1.5 to 2.5 degrees, a typical real life spread, and give two totally unexpected gifts to Mr. Merchant. You did open the door, right? Wait for 'Torpedo in the water', do it, it saves on prematures. Swing the scope and go for the second target if you're on a roll and already did the prep and homework for Target Two. Repeat.

*Get the scope down, belay Silent, dive like a banshee, get that temp layer, and reload. If you're good, you can come back for another round. If the IJN is good that day, get outta Dodge.

Don't forget to mark the Nav Map for stragglers and gun candidates.

Go home, be glad you're breathing, let Nimitz tell you what a good boy you are. Marry the girl of your dreams and tell your grandkids you'd rather not talk about it ('cuz you don't).

[Daniel Prates]

I still think the error is coming from the flag issue, it being either computed or not computed as it should.

[PortsmouthProwler]

Well, if the above is on the money, Webster's GFO mod has good optics and stadimeter and ranging - which, in my experience, it does.

And, per my notes above - when you're into 1,000 yards or less, you don't even have to ID the target. Just put in the range, AoB, and speed. Between proximity and even a two torp spread, you'll get good results with a little practice. Depending on the target, three or more. I was playing one of the canned missions and a smallish capital ship swam into view, dead ahead, athwart my course. I dropped all procedure and punched six fish as quick as I could. Scratch one CL.

Do I miss sometimes? Sure, I do. Do I even get killed sometimes? Yup, I do. I wouldn't play a duck shooting arcade game.

[Armistead]

The three minute rule is 100% accurate, why most use it .

[CapnScurvy]

Tell me, is the Hiryu mast height for TMO 2.1 still set at 20 meters, or 65.6 feet tall?

It should read around 37 meters, or 121.4 feet tall.

This is an error in mast height for the stock game going back to when it was first released, and carried on by TMO by using the games file of the original release. UbiSoft patched the Hiryu some time ago to 31 meters mast height, but it still is not correct!

The point is, this target and many others have the mast height so screwed up you couldn't hit it unless you're so close the torpedo has no chance of missing!!

[CapnScurvy]

As a follow up, for those that may not believe the type of mast height error I described in the previous post exists in the game (or one modded into it), I suggest you check for yourself.

Use this "Hiryu Mission Test" to check the accuracy of the Stadimeter using the mast height of the stock game, or the TMO 2.1 mod, or any other mod you choose. It's JSGME compatible, just download it into the "MODS" folder of the Wolves of the Pacific folder and "activate" it like you would any other mod.

The "Hiryu Mission Test" will appear in the "Quick Missions" or "Single Missions" menu heading of the main game screen. Select the "Realism" option heading found along the bottom of the page, and set the options to nothing "enabled" ("zero" realism). This way you will have the game auto targeting provide you the true accurate range of the 8 Hiryu's positioned around the Porpoise class sub. Just read the range off the Position Keeper and keep track of each target at the 8 relative bearing positions around the sub. Then, use the "Escape" key to return to the main menu of the game and "Enable" manual targeting as the only option for running the mission again.

This time pop the periscope up and take a stadimeter reading of the top of the flag mast (actually you won't see the mast, it doesn't exist. Just use the top of the flag where it would have attached to the mast, figuring it has to be there, visible or not). Check the range found in the Position Keeper and compare it to the true actual range you recorded with auto targeting. Do the stadimeter check several times to get a good average of the range. You'll see the stadimeter found range is quite different than the true accurate range (use the sonar to recheck the true accurate range to the targets. You'll find the sonar, when done by you and sent to the TDC/Position Keeper, are exactly the same as the auto targeting range).

This "difference" is caused by several things. The largest being the Mast Height found for the TMO Hiryu (in the Recognition Manual) is off by 17 meters (56 feet) than what it should be. It's too short!! The stock game lists the Hiryu as 31 meters, or 101 feet tall. Still too short. You won't get an accurate range with the stadimeter if the mast height measurement is this far off. What some of you have stated regarding following "procedures in manual targeting" are correct, however the correct procedure does not make up for the inaccuracy of listing the incorrect mast height (or whatever reference position you use for taking a stadimeter reading).

While you're at it, using the stadimeter, check out the difference between the bow target and the stern target Hiryu's. Compare them to the two port and starboard Hiryu's. You'll find a difference in found range of the two front and back targets compared to the two left and right targets. This is a result of the stadimeter not being correctly positioned on the sub model, resulting in different range distances when comparing these bearing positions. A target will have a different range finding due to what relative bearing it happens to be on, even though the target is at the same true distance away from the sub (give or take a couple of meters/yards)! This was not the case in real life. The periscope itself was the starting position for the real life stadimeter function. In the game, this function is done with a separate "camera" view, independent of the sub model's position of the periscope. This independent view is not correctly positioned matching the position of what the stadimeter math equation uses for finding manual range.

Throw in the fact that the stock TBT/Periscope Telemeter divisions (the hash marks found on the scope lens) are not capable of giving the correct measurement due to the "Field of View" not being set correctly, only adds to the manual targeting inaccuracy. If you want to read more, look at this "Optical Targeting Correction" mods "Discussion" section found further down the page. It should show you what's wrong with the game (which no other mod has addressed) and what has been done to correct it (including corrected mast height/reference height measurements).

[Armistead]

I use SCAF with TMO and have no problems with TMO, but did notice the issue before, so I agree.

[AVGWarhawk]

Get within in 1500 yards are better. Use the tools for range, AOB and speed. At this range you should be able to get accurate readings for a sinking. You have to remember that approach from a distance is guess work. Get the general direction of the target. Rough guess on speed and range. Start the PK and let the attack begin to develope. When in close the accuracy of your range/AOB can be generated quite easily. Send a spread of 3 torps as was the general rule.

PS. I use TMO. No issues getting range. Get in close and personal.

[0rpheus]

Good advice AVG. I usually do, I can hit most of the time at 1000 yards (after much swearing and fiddling with the AoB) if my position's perfect, but if I even slightly fluff the approach, which happens occasionally when chasing fast targets, my torps tend to go all over the place... anything over a thousand and the ranging gets much much harder.

I know it's not really the thread but a little off topic probably won't hurt - the AoB is more of a problem. I think I now get the 'ship bearing 230' that I get occasionally when searching for ships, turning towards it and spotting them before the radar does... but I don't get how the smaller numbers on the same dial are also used/applied in terms of AoB. I came to SH4 having never played a naval game before in my life so I've no experience with this kind of thing.

I use map contacts (and probably always will) so I can plot a fairly decent course for my target and find its heading, but the AoB input on the top right of the scope never seems to correspond to what I'm reading as heading, and it changes constantly during the approach (which I get, because the ships is moving relative to me - but I thought the TDC was supposed to account for that) so I just end up twisting the dial until I get something that roughly corresponds with the ship's estimated course and tweak it with F3/F6 until it's right. I'm sure that's not the right way to do it but the documentation is a bit over my head!

It's a shame there's no way to leave manual targeting on (so you can enter all the info and do it yourself if you want), but still leaving the 'L' lock target key as activating auto-targeting. I started trying manual because I wanted a way to hit ships in heavy storms where getting a visible lock is impossible at torpedo range (too close to arm/often vis is 300 metres or so), so I checked out WernerSobe's vids (including the sonar only), but I just can't manage it (manual speed calcs are way, way beyond me)... so I've gone back to auto-targeting, and letting the buggers go if it's stormy weather.

[AVGWarhawk]

This thread is your friend.


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=108931


Also, I always go for the 90 degree approach. Always have the vessels side to my bow. The 90 degree approach under 1500 yards is very deadly.


I'm also a loan vessel hunter. Battleships are cool to sink. Destroyers are not fun to play with. I go for the easy meat!

[Daniel Prates]

Originally Posted by PortsmouthProwler

Do I miss sometimes? Sure, I do. Do I even get killed sometimes? Yup, I do. I wouldn't play a duck shooting arcade game.

Never before have I seen someone compliment this game with such eloquence.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by PortsmouthProwler

???

100 yards per minute (I assume that is meant) times 60 minutes is 6,000 yards in an hour which is very close to 3 nautical miles an hour, i. e., 3 knots. Unless you meant three minutes...

Three minute plots? Why? More data? The futz factor in the range alone introduces enough error. Personally, I don't like to keep the scope up for very long, it does not pay to advertise.
...

I gather you are not familiar with the 3 minute plotting rule. In 3 minutes a target moving at 1 knot moves about 100 yards. Since the ruler map tool can measure in these units easily many players like to plot in that interval. Just read off the digits it has moved thus far and you know speed after 3 minutes. It's a neat rule to get into manual plotting for beginners. No need to correct for odd time periods and leftover seconds. Simply on the 3rd minute, But I agree, accurate speed, especially when using optical ranging alone, is pretty bad in these short intervals. Averaging the target motion over a longer time is what I would advise at all times to make shot counts. (without spreads I mean)

The futz factor in the range really depends on your position relative to the target. If the AOB is around 90 (on his beam) then the range error leads to a course uncertainty between plots. But when you are infront or behind him, it leads to a uncertainty in how much it moved during the interval.(so uncertain speed) Therefore I like to parallel to his course while keeping on his beam out of sight. Bearing information is then reasonably good to provide a measure of speed. If the time interval is reasonably long for distant targets. And coincidentaly it's pretty much just like your own movement.