Greece general strike: Unions act amid cuts debate

[Gerald]

You mean socialism? Leaving the euro would probably be a good option for the whole Union (EU) and then get them to start from scratch, replace the entire government .... and make sure that the people working after age 50 to get tax money, and take a harsh austerity program a few years.

[MH]

Some economist here said that Greece was never really ready to join EU with its economy.
Its was just politics.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by MH

Some economist here said that Greece was never really ready to join EU with its economy.
Its was just politics.

True, I think so

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by MH

Some economist here said that Greece was never really ready to join EU with its economy.
Its was just politics.

Not just Greece apparently.

[STEED]

How about turning the whole of Greece in to a riot school?

The worlds police can get all the training they need while the Greeks riot.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by STEED

How about turning the whole of Greece in to a riot school?

The worlds police can get all the training they need while the Greeks riot.

Today Greece...perhaps tomorrow the UK

[Bakkels]

Originally Posted by MH

Some economist here said that Greece was never really ready to join EU with its economy.
Its was just politics.

Yup. Too many countries were able to join the EU way too easy. The EU on a whole I think isn't a bad concept, it just should have been handled very differently. (Ofcourse I realise that that is easy to say in hindsight)

If we want the EU to work, it should have way more economical power. I know a lot of people wouldn't agree, but if you want a European Union that actually works, then for god's sake give it more power over economies.
If a country doesn't want to sacrifice it's economical autonomy, than it shouldn't join / have joined in the first place. In fact, my belief is that the EU's core business should be economics in the first place.

Here's how I see it; either shut down the entire EU concept (aside from the Euro and the open borders; liquidating the euro would cost a lot, and it actually made us a lot of money up to now. The problem is not the euro as a currency; it's the countries that shouldn't have been allowed to participate in the first place that make it a costly project)

But IF you want to go forward with the EU:
- Uphold the rules that were set in the first place; a lot of countries
have been violating rules regarding inflation and debt for years
without any serious penalties.

- Move the lot to Brussel permanently. The situation as it is now, is
ridiculous. In fact, I'm surprised non-European forum members never
made fun of us for that. They would be so right.
A breakdown of the EU parliament:
It's Secretary-General resides in Luxemburg, most of
the activities of the Parliament and it's members work from Brussel.
But each month the four-day general meeting of the Parliament is
taking place in Strassbourg, France. So each month, six removal vans
(or how do you call them? You know, the U-Haul things) transport
3700 boxes with documents to Strassbourg. And 700 officials
travel either by plane, car or train. Total annual costs of these
ridiculous back-and-forth travels: 250 million euro's. All because the
French insisted on the plenary sessions being held in France

- Let the EU concentrate on monetary business and economical laws
that influence other member states. It was what the EU was meant
for in the first place. Don't meddle with laws in member's countries
that don't have anything to do with Europe as a whole.

- Completely quit the agricultural subsidies. At present, 70% (!) of the
EU's 135 billion budget goes to subsidies to (small) farmers.
In Europe, small farmers have no economical reason of existance.
The only way they can make profit is because of these subsidies. I'm
sorry to say it, but once again it was France (and Spain) that insisted
on this, as they have a lot of small-scale agriculture. But it's an unfair
competitive advantage. Which does three bad things: it keeps down
Africa, a continent that could make a lot of money on producing and
exporting food. It creates an unfair competitive advantage against
American, Russian and other farmers. And as I said above; it
gobbles up 70% of the EU's budget! That doesn't make any sense at
all...

Well there's my 2 cents anyway. Sorry for the wall of text. Let's just see what will happen in the years to come. Maybe it will take a real crisis (like a country going bankrupt) to wake up the EU and make it restructure itself. Perhaps we'll be doomed and everything goes to hell!!! Well I'm a cynic and an optimist at the same time; a solution will always be found. The problem is, most of the time it'll be a short-term solution. But that seems to be our fate as human beings trying to govern on a large scale; when push comes to shove, short term will always > long term...
Europe as a whole won't go bankrupt, but I hope to see the EU becoming more pragmatic, and less political.

[August]

Personally I think that the big problem with the EU is that it is attempting to achieve a major goal of every European potentate since Caesar.

Popular suspicion and distrust runs many centuries deep. Talk about a hard sell.

[Bakkels]

The principle difference being that the EU isn't lead by a single person. It didn't come into existence because of a single person's desire to gain power. It came into existence because of the profit to be made, and the potential benefits the members would experience. And they certainly have for at least the first 40 years of the EU's existence. But big things tend to grow bigger. And not always at a healthy speed. Which caused the problems we see here today. But it has nothing to do with any potentate.

It's a hard sell, I'll give you that. When there was a referendum about the European Constitution a lot of people voted against it just because governments took the 'hard sell' approach. Saying all kinds of terrible things would happen if we didn't vote for it. Which in turn caused a situation where there were only losers.
However there ís something worthwhile in the concept of the EU in my opinion.

[August]

Bakkels not all European empires were started by individuals as you imply. Rome and Republican France are two examples that come to mind.

The point is that i'd think you Europeans ought to have a pretty healthy distrust of empire building groups by now, regardless of their apparent benign motivations.

[Bakkels]

No they weren't always individuals, I understood it like that when you said 'potentate'.
But I was actually thinking Europe should -economically- reform it self and take the US as an example. (Bet you didn't expect me to say that )
All countries have their fallacies, but also their strengths. And we might as well learn from those and try to incorporate those.
I think as an economical union, and concerning trade, the US doesn't do that much of a bad job. Within it's own borders there are generally no weird laws that inhibit free trade from state to state, and those laws are all made in a government body that rules over all these states. Plus I get the feeling each state still has it's own distinct culture. For Europe, forming an economic union also doesn't necessarily take anything away from countries cultures I think.
Now there might be a lot of history in Europe of countries waging war and whatnot, but nowadays, there isn't any real animosity between EU countries.

As far as 'empire building' groups; the initiative lies with many different countries, so it's not empire building, it is forming a cooperation of nations. So unless you believe in NWO theories (and I take the liberty of assuming you don't) this can't be compared to building an empire the way you put it. If you look at it pragmatically, uniting Europe on an economic basis is a good thing. That's just my opinion of course..

[August]

Originally Posted by Bakkels

So unless you believe in NWO theories (and I take the liberty of assuming you don't) this can't be compared to building an empire the way you put it. If you look at it pragmatically, uniting Europe on an economic basis is a good thing. That's just my opinion of course..

It's all just opinions but in this case I bow to yours. I won't presume to tell someone how things are in their own country. It's just the impression I get from way over this side of the pond.

[Gerald]

Greek politicians are to vote later on austerity measures that have sparked nationwide strikes and the worst rioting in Athens for more than year.

PM George Papandreou has said that only his 28bn-euro (£25bn) austerity plan will get Greece back on its feet.

The package is expected to be approved by parliament by a narrow margin, but correspondents say it is unlikely to bring an end to the unrest.

If it is not approved, Greece could run out of money within weeks.

Parliament is scheduled to finish debating the bill at 1300 (1100 GMT), with the vote taking place some time after.

Greek officials say 46 people were injured in the capital on Tuesday, including 37 policemen, after an anti-cuts rally turned violent.

Police used tear gas against groups of youths in the streets around parliament, and arrested at least 14 people.

The roads of the capital were left strewn with broken paving stones and other debris after the first day of a 48-hour general strike against the planned austerity measures.

Greece's austerity package and its implementation law must be passed in separate votes later on Wednesday and on Thursday for the next instalment of the country's 110bn-euro bail-out to be released by the EU and IMF.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13953077


Note: Update Record,29 June 2011 Last updated at 07:27 GMT

[joea]

A great deal of ignorance on this thread.

[Gerald]

The Greek parliament has voted in favour of a drastic package of austerity measures intended to save the country from defaulting on its debts.

The proposed tax hikes and spending cuts have been deeply unpopular with the Greek public.

A nationwide 48-hour strike is under way and violent clashes are continuing in the streets of the capital, Athens.

Greece is heavily in debt and the package is needed to win the latest tranche of a 110bn-euro (£98bn) loan.

MPs passed the measures by 155 votes to 138.

They will hold a second vote on Thursday aimed at changing a law allowing the package to be implemented.
'No time to step back'

Ahead of the vote, PM George Papandreou urged MPs to approve the package by consensus.

He had faced wavering support from within his governing Panhellenic Socialist Movement (Pasok), which has a slim majority, with 155 seats out of 300 in parliament. But in the end, only one Pasok deputy voted against the package.

Mr Papandreou says his austerity plan is the only way to get Greece back on its feet.

"We must avoid the country's collapse at all costs. Now is not the time to step back," he told deputies.

Were his 28bn-euro austerity package to be rejected, Greece could run out of money within weeks, as the EU and the International Monetary Fund want the measures implemented before they release more funds to help Greece pay off its vast debts.

But tensions are running high in Greece, where unions are angry that the government's austerity programme will impose taxes on those earning the minimum wage, following months of other cuts that have seen unemployment rise to more than 16%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13960947


Note: Update Record, 29 June 2011 Last updated at 13:40 GMT