One more....Lesson #42

[Iceman]

I want to thk you for the link you posted Avon Lady and I made it to lesson #42 Crash Course in Your Faith....and I think I have seen enough.

a few quotes and I know you may or may not agree with them ....I just thought they were interesting.

Paul preached that belief in Jesus replaced the laws of the Torah -- that is, all the commandments that the Romans who were attracted to Judaism found so cumbersome.�

Incorrect, yet...subject to interpretation as always...Belief in Jesus is not taught as a replacement but bringing one into complete fufillment of all the laws.

Paul preached monotheism to be sure, but with one radical innovation. The way of salvation for Gentiles was now much simpler: belief in Jesus replaced observance of the commandments

Again...the word replaced....not.Dats to easy.

By converting to Christianity, a Roman was able to subscribe to the Jewish view of one loving God, as well as to the Torah's moral vision of peace, justice, and love of one's neighbor. A Roman could subscribe to these ideas without having to become "different" in the way Jews were "different."
Thus Paul removed the barriers and opened the floodgates.

Well one must be "Born Again" of spirit acording to the "New Testament", from what I read I know ya like that one...so if one is really born again...did he really not become different?

Christianity preserved all the advantages of its Jewish heritage but without the only two factors that might otherwise have inhibited its growth: the obligation of the ritual law and the close connection between religion and national identity. By proclaiming that the Christ was 'the end of the law' and by presenting itself to the world as 'the new spiritual Israel,' Hellenistic Christianity was able to reap the political and social fruits that had been sown by three centuries of Hellenistic Judaism.�

Christ is preached as the Fufillment of the law NOT the replacement.

Needless to say, observant Jews objected to Paul, a Jew whom they saw as the worst kind of heretic. Indeed, because of Jewish complaints against him, Paul was arrested by the Roman authorities, held for a time under house arrest, and finally executed in or around 67 CE (the year of the start of the Great Revolt against Rome in Israel.)�

If they killed Christ the same fate is to be expected for His followers..Good Job Paul! ya must have did it right.

Islam, according to Mohammed, was built on five pillars:
· Faith in one God ("there is no God but Allah")
· Prayer (five times a day)
· Charity (2.5% of one's income)
· Pilgrimage to Mecca called Haj (once in a lifetime)
· Fasting (a fast lasting from dawn to dusk for 30 days during the month of Ramadan)
Later a sixth pillar was added: Holy War called Jihad. (Incidentally, the original meaning of Jihad was an internal struggle between good and evil, but it was transformed into the idea of an external struggle against the non-Islamic world.)�

Not sure on this last Sixth pillar or it's interpretation but I suspect it is again being kinda interpretated by the writer here as to it being against the "non-Islamic world"

It must be pointed out, however, that Jews had a lot less problems with Islam than they did with Christianity. Islam was purely monotheistic, whereas Christianity incorporated a lot of pagan mythology into itself. Islam did not claim that Mohammad was "god" or "son of God" or that God came in three parts. Islam followed many Jewish laws and customs, unlike Christianity which disavowed the law of the Torah in favor of faith in Jesus.�

Man...Jews really seem pissed off about the laws...Christians do not dis-avow the laws.

Intresting reading to be sure and I will continue in my seeking for truths.I can really see though acording to my faith why Jesus was crucified....He seemed to threaten everything that had been a way of life for Jews for thousands of yrs.

I look at it this way....people were given 10...TEN commands from God....and could not keep them...why would God continue to direct humans to try to keep more laws that He knew we did'nt have a chance in hell of keeping....this is the view of Christianity in that where we fall short...as humans always can be counted on to do...our faith in Him..Jesus Christ and what he accomplished ...Blood and Body broken....pay or pave the way Back..to God.

It is a gift...of grace.So no man may boast.Ya have to carry your cross every day until his return.

Thks guys all this has increased my own faith.

[kiwi_2005]

Intresting reading to be sure and I will continue in my seeking for truths.I can really see though acording to my faith why Jesus was crucified....He seemed to threaten everything that had been a way of life for Jews for thousands of yrs.

Yeah thats how i see it. Avons beliefs are hers and hey she is Jewish after all, good on her for believing what most Jews go by.

But i realise ive been living in my cave to long, i always thought Jews believed Jesus. How wrong was i.

[gdogghenrikson]

some one should ban religon threads, they are getting old

[kiwi_2005]

some one should ban religon threads, they are getting old

:rotfl:

Yeah. But they are bloody addictive

[The Avon Lady]

I knew this was gonna happen!

I am not a theologian, not by profession nor by hobby. Nevertheless, there seems to be some elementary points here that have to be cleared up.

Originally Posted by Iceman

I want to thk you for the link you posted Avon Lady and I made it to lesson #42 Crash Course in Your Faith....and I think I have seen enough.

a few quotes and I know you may or may not agree with them ....I just thought they were interesting.

Incorrect, yet...subject to interpretation as always...Belief in Jesus is not taught as a replacement but bringing one into complete fufillment of all the laws.

How charming. Do Christians keep kosher? No? Keep family purity laws? No. Usury laws? No. Detailed laws of speech control? No.

So, fullfillment of laws is called making them disappear altogther? Well, you can believe that. But it defies literal meaninig.

And yes, you must go through hoops of fire to explain Christianity's total elimination of Torah laws, even when reading Matthew 5:19.

Let's take the 10 Commandments, which every believing Christian proclaims to accept.

The first commandment applies to the children of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. That's us - not you.

Christianity claims to accept the 2nd commandment but it's simply not true. Never was. a trinity is by defintion not the Omnipitent G-d the commandment refers to. Torah law has been taught since its handing down at Sinai that numerous concepts, a multi-divisioned and/or incarnate god being just one of them, are a blatant violation of the 2nd Commandment.

Now that you've mentioned Paul:

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called. But god hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and god hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty, and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath god chosen, yea and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are."
- Corinthians 1:24-28

Paul appeals to people who make no demands on the intellect and are willing to believe anything. A very handsome admission! And indeed the apostles were very ignorant men. And it suited the times very well to concoct a blend of Hellenism and Paganism and wrap it up with trappings of Judaism and offer it to the ignorant masses of Greece, Rome and elsewhere.

What of the 4th Commandment, keeping the Sabbath? Why has Christianity abrogated it and substituted Sunday? And what of it's numerous laws - none kept by Christianity?

The 1st Christians, at least, were one of many sects at the time, keeping the Jewish Sabbath (on Saturday) and festivals, praying in the Temple in Jerusalem and in synagogues and even keeping the Torah's dietary laws. The first 15 bishops were circumcised. So was Jesus, who himself was never a Christian and would have not understood where in the world Christianity got its rites an cerimonies from, had he lived to see them.

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel"
- Matthew 15:24

Jesus never conceived of his mission as being other than to his own brethren. When you realize this, Paul's cheap propaganda falls away, revealing Christianity's false roots from the start.

Paul preached monotheism to be sure, but with one radical innovation. The way of salvation for Gentiles was now much simpler: belief in Jesus replaced observance of the commandments

Judaism for dummies?

And this is OK with everybody?

And Christianity is NOT monotheism by definition.

By converting to Christianity, a Roman was able to subscribe to the Jewish view of one loving God, as well as to the Torah's moral vision of peace, justice, and love of one's neighbor. A Roman could subscribe to these ideas without having to become "different" in the way Jews were "different."

We've made a sale! How lovely. Well, definitely a step up from mythology, idolatry, Hellenism and Paganism of yesteryear. A great money maker, too.

Thus Paul removed the barriers and opened the floodgates.

I've always favored quality over quantity. Judaism also has a principle of "ends do not justify means".

Well one must be "Born Again" of spirit acording to the "New Testament", from what I read I know ya like that one...so if one is really born again...did he really not become different?

These are newfangled words and a concept completely irrelevant in G-d's Torah handed to Israel to obey and follow. It's charming and it's magical, oh mystical. But it's make believe, just the same.

Christ is preached as the Fufillment of the law NOT the replacement.

Toying with semantics. Where is the strict adherence to G-d's laws as stated in the Torah? I turn to the ever holy book, the dictionary:

ful·fill also ful·fil
tr.v. ful·filled, ful·fill·ing, ful·fills, also ful·fils
To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
To carry out (an order, for example).
To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform. See Synonyms at satisfy.
To bring to an end; complete.

re·place·ment
n.
The act or process of replacing or of being replaced; substitution.

If they killed Christ the same fate is to be expected for His followers..Good Job Paul! ya must have did it right.

I know lots of people who died for nothing. Happens all the time.

Not sure on this last Sixth pillar or it's interpretation but I suspect it is again being kinda interpretated by the writer here as to it being against the "non-Islamic world"

Suggested reading: The Legacy of Jihad.

But we digress..........

Man...Jews really seem pissed off about the laws...Christians do not dis-avow the laws.

Actually, it seems Christians are really pissed off about the laws. But they shouldn't be. See Matthew 5:17-19, Acts 6:7, Acts 21:20 and numerous other new testament texts. Oops.

Christians, for the most part, are idol worshippers according to the Torah, plain and simple.

While it's true that Islam mimics many Jewish laws (charity, dietary and other laws and customs), it's irrelevant and the author above seems to refer to it as no more than being a sincere form of flattery.

Intresting reading to be sure and I will continue in my seeking for truths.I can really see though acording to my faith why Jesus was crucified....He seemed to threaten everything that had been a way of life for Jews for thousands of yrs.

He was crucified by the Romans for treason. He was a rabble rouser, one of numerous. His false messianism was a trumpet call to to rebel against Rome's rule, just like Bar Kochva actually did and his Rabbinic promoter, Rabbi Akivah's, overassumptions were sparks of false messianism, too - and Rabbi Akiva was rebuked by his colleagues for it.

I look at it this way....people were given 10...TEN commands from God....and could not keep them...why would God continue to direct humans to try to keep more laws that He knew we did'nt have a chance in hell of keeping....

According to your logic, we should do away with the 10 Commandments, too, since people could not keep them. Oh well! Let's throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Furthermore, according to your logic, the Torah must be false, since G-d would never give humanity so much that they can't obey. No. Wait. G-d changed his mind. No. Wait. G-d had a better idea. No. Wait........................................

this is the view of Christianity in that where we fall short...as humans always can be counted on to do...our faith in Him..Jesus Christ and what he accomplished ...Blood and Body broken....pay or pave the way Back..to God.

This is only relevant to those that already are converted to the concept of Christianity. It has no prior foundations. This is true of much Christian preaching. So I assume you are not talking to me.

It is a gift...of grace.So no man may boast.Ya have to carry your cross every day until his return.

Ditto

Thks guys all this has increased my own faith.

More to ya!

[kiwi_2005]

Thks guys all this has increased my own faith.

Thats good. Last thing i would want to do is turn someone AWAY from their Faith.

[kelawi]

I'd probably be better off not saying a word here, but I was never that smart.


Not all Christians have left the 7th day Sabbath.
Not all Christians have given up the Holy Days.
Not all Christians have embraced pagan holidays.
Not all Christians have stopped following the dietary laws.
Not all Christians have forgotten the Lord, their God.
Not all Christians believe the Torah has been done away with.

I should probably stop there.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by kelawi

I'd probably be better off not saying a word here, but I was never that smart.


Not all Christians have left the 7th day Sabbath.
Not all Christians have given up the Holy Days.
Not all Christians have embraced pagan holidays.
Not all Christians have stopped following the dietary laws.
Not all Christians have forgotten the Lord, their God.
Not all Christians believe the Torah has been done away with.

I should probably stop there.

That's OK. It's true.

Only problem is then that the conclusion is that 2000 years of Christianity would therefore be a sham and its 100's of millions of adherers are barking up the wrong tree.

There's a lot more to it than that, however. But this is where we start getting into serious disputations of these Christian Jews beliefs and claims versus what G-d already said in the Torah, Prophets and Scriptures.

No time now. Frankly, I hope we stop here.