Clear the Bridge! Dick O'kane method

[commandosolo2009]

Originally Posted by cleverusername

The periscope reticle has markings in degrees that show where the various components are located. So you can see that the bow, middle, and stern compartments are located at 3 degrees left, dead ahead, and 3 degrees right. Then you use the offset feature in the TDC to aim the torpedoes at those locations on the ship.

I don't believe the "Dick O'Kane" method posted on the Subsim forums is historically accurate. Dick O'Kane, trained as a wartime US submarine skipper, would have used all of the features of the TDC and position keeper as originally designed, instead of the shortcut method posted here.

He did! And in the entire book, the TDC he used was to generate a range and bearing, (ie to check the accuracy of input) since he had to water-lap and dunk the scope alot of times, in order to not risk being spotted. He extensively used it at Honshu (fourth chapter and patrol)

[Rockin Robbins]

There is no evidence that Dick O'Kane ever used the Subsim Dick O'Kane method exactly as taught. As a master of the TDC he would have been intimately familiar with constant bearing attacks and would have used them.

Because of differences in how the game TDC works and the actual TDC it is not possible for us to replicate Dick O'Kane's practice. And when those of us who applied constant bearing techniques to the game TDC and came up with the attack method did it, we knew that Dick O'Kane had nothing to do with the technique.

In order to make our techniques memorable we chose to name them after prominent US Submarine Captains: hence the Dick O'Kane Technique and the John P Cromwell Technique.

These attack methods are historically feasible, meaning they could have been performed with the instruments and knowledge of the time. They cannot be shown to be precisely applied by anyone during the course of the war.

So you can do a game Dick O'Kane attack in a real submarine but you cannot use Captain O'Kane's method in Silent Hunter 4. Our game TDC will not allow it.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by commandosolo2009

He did! And in the entire book, the TDC he used was to generate a range and bearing, (ie to check the accuracy of input) since he had to water-lap and dunk the scope alot of times, in order to not risk being spotted. He extensively used it at Honshu (fourth chapter and patrol)

So what exactly is the issue?

There was a page in O'Kane's book I was trying to mimic where he was overriding the position keeper and holding the bearing to target constant. I could find it if I have to (I know I've quoted the page number here before); but I'd have to check his book out again from the library. I don't think anyone is suggesting the guy didn't know how to use the TDC as it was intended.

Frankly, I was trying to intitiate a Fast-90 attack in a US fleetboat, but the PK/TDC doesn't allow for adjusting the AoB while panning the scope (aggravating). I noticed that O'Kane could do something with his TDC that I couldn't do in the game and that irritated me a little. ...did my best with what the PK/TDC allows in this game and this method sorta fell out of it. This game models a position keeper PK and TDC as if they are forever joined, whereas I think the full contraption in the fleetboat had both a PK and a TDC and they could somehow be operated seperately, but I don't know that for sure, I just suspect it was the case from what I read of O'Kane giving various commands.

I didn't really have any idea what to call the technique, except that Fast-90 seemed inappropriate because the TDC doesn't have the same whiz-wheel qualities of the U-boat TDC. RR came up with the idea to give the nod to O'Kane... seemed OK to me, and less heady than calling it the RR or AB technique. I mean I guess if I were to try to accurately classify it, I'd call it the "No TDC" method. You're basically disabling the TDC and pointing the nose of the sub where you want the torp to go. Not quite as fun as what you can do in the u-boat but it gets the job done.

Incidentally, I recall reading that the fleetboat PK/TDC seemed to be an adaptation of a battleship targeting computer. My take on the u-boat vs. fleetboat method of targetting is that it seems to be oriented to the types of attacks. The US fleetboat seems better equiped for single target tracking and stealthy ambush, complete obliteration of single target. While the u-boat seems better equipped for setting a generic course for lots of ships (convoys) and then popping up and unleashing hell on several targets quickly.

I like em both.

[XLjedi]

Ummm...

I would like to go on record once again to mention that when I first described and tried to mimic O'Kane's tactics. I did in fact use the TDC as I believe O'Kane did and it has always been somewhat a thorn in my side that it was dumbed down over time but kept the "O'Kane" monicker.

What people call the O'Kane method now is such a crude method it doesn't really do O'Kane justice.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=134

...where I mentioned "develop a solution for a 20° bearing (70° AoB)" I was using the TDC to do it.


In his book, O'Kane did the same thing as I described in the above post... holding the aiming wire constant and firing as target points passed the wire. It was just one attack that he documented in his book, doesn't necessarily mean he always did it.

[CDR Resser]

If I may add something to the discussion about the 120 degree reference. After spending many years reading O'Kane's books, I finally found out what was meant by the 120 degree track in another of the books about both Morton and O'Kane, I believe by Tuohy. O'Kane himself mentions it only in passing in each of his books.
The 120 degree track refers to torpedoes being fired to approach the target ship aft of the beam, or 120 degrees off the bow. This aspect allowed a spread of torpedoes to cover almost any evasive maneuver that the target might make.
It was always rather difficult to imagine this before I was able to demonstrate it using the game.
Hope this helps, and I am not repeating anything already covered.

Respectfully Submitted;
CDR Resser

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

Ummm...

I would like to go on record once again to mention that when I first described and tried to mimic O'Kane's tactics. I did in fact use the TDC as I believe O'Kane did and it has always been somewhat a thorn in my side that it was dumbed down over time but kept the "O'Kane" monicker.

What people call the O'Kane method now is such a crude method it doesn't really do O'Kane justice.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=134

...where I mentioned "develop a solution for a 20° bearing (70° AoB)" I was using the TDC to do it.


In his book, O'Kane did the same thing as I described in the above post... holding the aiming wire constant and firing as target points passed the wire. It was just one attack that he documented in his book, doesn't necessarily mean he always did it.

I'm glad you posted this. It tends to be confusing when people see the "O'Kane method" and try to replicate exactly what was in the book. In the future it might be better to name techniques descripively rather than after historical figures, (i.e. The Perpendicular Attack method rather than The Jimmy Johnson Fleetboat Ace method). Many will see the most recent posts or the tutorials, but not read the hundreds of posts in the various threads.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

Frankly, I was trying to intitiate a Fast-90 attack in a US fleetboat,

There you go, right there! And that was the conversation that resulted in what we teach as the Dick O'Kane Targeting Method. It is named in honor od Dick O'Kane but has NOTHING to do with the mechanics of how O'Kane the person shot torpedoes. There is perfect evidence that he did constant bearing shooting. I think Nisgeis has gone as far as we can to determine what the mechanics were. Lacking the ability to "very carefully turn the target ship bearing input crank backwards so that the relative target bearing shown on the TDC does not move." as Nisgeis explains, we have to find historically plausible but not historically used methods of achieving most of the same result.

We achieved the booms. We did not preserve the use of the position keeper to validate our solution. Since our initial aim was to use the US TDC to replicate the U-Boat fast-90 attack as much as possible, we didn't feel we needed to go any further.

Yes, the Dick O'Kane technique could be extended to include other angles of attack than submarine 90º to target track with the introduction of complexity. However Nisgeis covered that perfectly with his Vector Analysis Technique.

That's where my personal goal of making successful captains out of newbie captains came in and I eliminated all steps that did not directly contribute to the boom. Aaronblood is right that using my rules of thumb can obscure understanding of the general concepts behind torpedo targeting.

But I figured that your next step is to wrap your brain around normal US targeting techniques, and you would understand it then anyway. My goal was to produce reliable manual targeting booms as quickly as possible for a newer player.

Limited goals plus ruthlessly simplified procedure plus application equals success. It's simple addition!