America can be a superpower or a welfare state, but not both.

Armistead · 05-30-11, 10:45 AM

It seems with the cost of military comes the desire to constantly use it. Bush ran against Clinton's nation building and now we nation build through wars and constantly police the world. We're rebuilding infrastructure in other nations why ours crumbles. It seems the US must always pay the price. Wars alone cost us over a trillion. Let's face it, much profit to be made from war.

The cold war is over. Many of the platforms we have today give us very little bang for the buck. We spend more than the next five nations combined and to many that's not enough.

We could easily shut down over 100 cold war military bases in Europe.

No doubt the defense budget isn't gonna break us, but it must be on the table. My concern is constant wars and conflicts, why can't we mind our business. Our border is a warzone, let's protect it first.

The bigger welfare state is the bail outs of corporations that stopped working for americans long ago.

Gerald · 05-30-11, 10:50 AM

Many bases are not in use today in Europe, which on the whole represents a very small cost on the whole.

Oberon · 05-30-11, 11:10 AM

Italy was a superpower once, Britain too, as was Egypt, and Iraq. Great powers rise and fall, history shows us this, it's in how you accept this that governs the outcome of the nation. You can either keep holding on until the last minute and collapse in violence and chaos like Rome did, or slowly wind down like others did.

To be honest, I'd be a little less worried about one nation toppling and more worried about society as a whole collapsing, we are perhaps one great big superpower now, the whole planet is linked in a manner that, even fifty years ago (a gnats fingernail in the terms of the history of humanity) would only have been possible in the confines of one country. You can travel from New York to Paris in the same sort of convenience that you could from New York to *looks at US map* Philadelphia. You go back fifty or sixty years and such a trek would have involved a long trip by ship, go back another fifty years and it would have been an even longer trip. The concept of nationstates is fast becoming outdated, divisions are erupting not through race or nationality but through ideals, primarily because on this new world of the internet you can be any nationality or race, but generally you keep to one ideal. However the ticking bomb is resources, oil, water, food, our growing population and longer living society which places the accumulation of resources as a personal goal, well...unless we can pull some pretty nifty tech out of our backsides within the next century...heck probably even half that, well...we're looking at a nasty shock.

It's not governments that need to change...society needs to change.

Just my two cents and topic derailment...I'll call the breakdown gang...

Betonov · 05-30-11, 12:27 PM

Why would one even want to be a superpower. All the stress, bad publicity, nr.1 target of rouge states. It's not as if the world is a VictoriaII game, where you have to be a great power to influence other states and get first dibs on resources. Anything can be bought anywhere anytime. Slovenia is a tiny nations with as much influence in the geopolitical game than a midget has in a basketball game. But still, we have anything we want, because we can buy it anywhere, anytime.

Hottentot · 05-30-11, 12:57 PM

Interesting discussion and Betonov's comment especially reminded me of a good book I read about this recently. So I'm just using this chance to suggest Barry Buzan's "The United States and the Great Powers: World Politics in the Twenty-First Century".

Blood_splat · 05-30-11, 01:05 PM

We're no longer a superpower... We lost superman.

Stealth Hunter · 05-31-11, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

It seems with the cost of military comes the desire to constantly use it. Bush ran against Clinton's nation building and now we nation build through wars and constantly police the world. We're rebuilding infrastructure in other nations why ours crumbles. It seems the US must always pay the price. Wars alone cost us over a trillion. Let's face it, much profit to be made from war.

You are well-spoken in highlighting the issues we face lol. What should have been recognized and asked about this whole "World Police" ideology a long time ago is... how the hell can any nation expect to solve the various problems of other nations when it can't even solve its own beforehand?

mookiemookie · 05-31-11, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

It seems with the cost of military comes the desire to constantly use it. Bush ran against Clinton's nation building and now we nation build through wars and constantly police the world. We're rebuilding infrastructure in other nations why ours crumbles. It seems the US must always pay the price. Wars alone cost us over a trillion. Let's face it, much profit to be made from war.

The cold war is over. Many of the platforms we have today give us very little bang for the buck. We spend more than the next five nations combined and to many that's not enough.

We could easily shut down over 100 cold war military bases in Europe.

No doubt the defense budget isn't gonna break us, but it must be on the table. My concern is constant wars and conflicts, why can't we mind our business. Our border is a warzone, let's protect it first.

The bigger welfare state is the bail outs of corporations that stopped working for americans long ago.

How many times have our leaders told us the latest military misadventure "isn't about nation building" as we go on to try to build a nation amenable to our interests.

Oberon · 05-31-11, 09:11 AM

Quite frankly, and I don't say this in a 'OMFG I'm from the UK and therefore must be the US's best buddy' but the US is welcome to keep their bases running over here, for one thing it brings in money for us from US airmen shopping in local places. For another it gives the US a nice refueling point without having to put up tankers, or indeed gives them somewhere to base the tankers (Mildenhall springs to mind) and it's nice to see US kit in the skies from time to time. Yes, the UK is very much riding on the coat-tails of the US military, primarily because we've lost most of ours.

It's not a situation I'm exactly happy with, but at the same time it's nice to know that someone has our back until our idiots have sorted themselves out.
However, if the US decided to cut back again on USAFE bases then I'd fully understand and support their decision, it is after all their military.

I do ponder, if perhaps the US, and other nations, need to do a hard reset on their finances, start a new peg system for it, stop any inflation and so forth. It's a tricky situation, and I really don't understand finances enough to be assertive on the subject, but it's not getting any better and whether this is due to a 'welfare state' or high military spending I do not know, but I think that both the US and other nations are fast approaching the point where a drastic measure is called for.

Onkel Neal · 05-31-11, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Quite frankly, and I don't say this in a 'OMFG I'm from the UK and therefore must be the US's best buddy' but the US is welcome to keep their bases running over here, for one thing it brings in money for us from US airmen shopping in local places. For another it gives the US a nice refueling point without having to put up tankers, or indeed gives them somewhere to base the tankers (Mildenhall springs to mind) and it's nice to see US kit in the skies from time to time. Yes, the UK is very much riding on the coat-tails of the US military, primarily because we've lost most of ours.

It's not a situation I'm exactly happy with, but at the same time it's nice to know that someone has our back until our idiots have sorted themselves out.

The UK & France earned their ride. They stood against the Nazis and Russians when everyone else watched. So I don't mean anything derogatory when I say you "are riding our security coattails", I'm just outlining one of the factors of our extremely high defense budget. Above all else, the US's transition from an isolationist power to a "world policeman" has been one hell of a success in keeping Western powers from re-engaging in world war.

August · 05-31-11, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

...the US's transition from an isolationist power to a "world policeman" has been one hell of a success in keeping Western powers from re-engaging in world war.

Darn good point. My only question is whether we can continue to afford doing this.

Jimbuna · 05-31-11, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Darn good point. My only question is whether we can continue to afford doing this.

I suspect...eventually 'NO' but what worries me is who will eventually take over the role.

China?

mookiemookie · 05-31-11, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I suspect...eventually 'NO' but what worries me is who will eventually take over the role.

China?

If they want to be seen as a legitimate superpower, they're going to have to start acting in that capacity.

August · 05-31-11, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I suspect...eventually 'NO' but what worries me is who will eventually take over the role.

China?

I dunno Jim. I have difficulty imagining China being either willing or even able to take over the role of European peacekeeper.

Heck our shared ancestry aside I don't think even we could have performed that role if it weren't for our massive cold war troop presence in Europe and the various effects it had on the host countries.

Armistead · 05-31-11, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

The UK & France earned their ride. They stood against the Nazis and Russians when everyone else watched. So I don't mean anything derogatory when I say you "are riding our security coattails", I'm just outlining one of the factors of our extremely high defense budget. Above all else, the US's transition from an isolationist power to a "world policeman" has been one hell of a success in keeping Western powers from re-engaging in world war.

I can hardly see a connection that us being the world police has kept us from engaging in another world war, nor do I see the dynamics of it. If anything it seems we're setting the stage for further conflict and weakening our economic power why the future powers to be gain strength.

We spend over 100 billion is Afganistan every year, yet we can't spend the money to rebuild towns torn up by recent storms. We're going broke rebuilding third world nations that still show us no favor and will go back to as they were when we leave..if we ever leave. The mid east is turning against our placed dictators and probably will go more radical.

05-30-11, 10:50 AM	#2
Gerald SUBSIM Newsman Join Date: May 2008 Location: Close to sea Posts: 24,254 Downloads: 553 Uploads: 0	Many bases are not in use today in Europe, which on the whole represents a very small cost on the whole. __________________ Nothing in life is to be feard,it is only to be understood. Marie Curie

05-30-11, 12:57 PM	#5
Hottentot Sea Lord Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: My private socialist utopia of Finland Posts: 1,918 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Interesting discussion and Betonov's comment especially reminded me of a good book I read about this recently. So I'm just using this chance to suggest Barry Buzan's "The United States and the Great Powers: World Politics in the Twenty-First Century". __________________ Хотели как лучше, а получилось как всегда.

05-30-11, 10:45 AM	#1
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	It seems with the cost of military comes the desire to constantly use it. Bush ran against Clinton's nation building and now we nation build through wars and constantly police the world. We're rebuilding infrastructure in other nations why ours crumbles. It seems the US must always pay the price. Wars alone cost us over a trillion. Let's face it, much profit to be made from war. The cold war is over. Many of the platforms we have today give us very little bang for the buck. We spend more than the next five nations combined and to many that's not enough. We could easily shut down over 100 cold war military bases in Europe. No doubt the defense budget isn't gonna break us, but it must be on the table. My concern is constant wars and conflicts, why can't we mind our business. Our border is a warzone, let's protect it first. The bigger welfare state is the bail outs of corporations that stopped working for americans long ago.

05-30-11, 11:10 AM	#3
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Italy was a superpower once, Britain too, as was Egypt, and Iraq. Great powers rise and fall, history shows us this, it's in how you accept this that governs the outcome of the nation. You can either keep holding on until the last minute and collapse in violence and chaos like Rome did, or slowly wind down like others did. To be honest, I'd be a little less worried about one nation toppling and more worried about society as a whole collapsing, we are perhaps one great big superpower now, the whole planet is linked in a manner that, even fifty years ago (a gnats fingernail in the terms of the history of humanity) would only have been possible in the confines of one country. You can travel from New York to Paris in the same sort of convenience that you could from New York to looks at US map Philadelphia. You go back fifty or sixty years and such a trek would have involved a long trip by ship, go back another fifty years and it would have been an even longer trip. The concept of nationstates is fast becoming outdated, divisions are erupting not through race or nationality but through ideals, primarily because on this new world of the internet you can be any nationality or race, but generally you keep to one ideal. However the ticking bomb is resources, oil, water, food, our growing population and longer living society which places the accumulation of resources as a personal goal, well...unless we can pull some pretty nifty tech out of our backsides within the next century...heck probably even half that, well...we're looking at a nasty shock. It's not governments that need to change...society needs to change. Just my two cents and topic derailment...I'll call the breakdown gang...

05-30-11, 12:27 PM	#4
Betonov Navy Seal Join Date: May 2009 Location: Slovenia Posts: 8,647 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	Why would one even want to be a superpower. All the stress, bad publicity, nr.1 target of rouge states. It's not as if the world is a VictoriaII game, where you have to be a great power to influence other states and get first dibs on resources. Anything can be bought anywhere anytime. Slovenia is a tiny nations with as much influence in the geopolitical game than a midget has in a basketball game. But still, we have anything we want, because we can buy it anywhere, anytime.

05-30-11, 01:05 PM	#6
Blood_splat Samurai Navy Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Beneath the waves Posts: 568 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	We're no longer a superpower... We lost superman.

05-31-11, 09:11 AM	#9
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Quite frankly, and I don't say this in a 'OMFG I'm from the UK and therefore must be the US's best buddy' but the US is welcome to keep their bases running over here, for one thing it brings in money for us from US airmen shopping in local places. For another it gives the US a nice refueling point without having to put up tankers, or indeed gives them somewhere to base the tankers (Mildenhall springs to mind) and it's nice to see US kit in the skies from time to time. Yes, the UK is very much riding on the coat-tails of the US military, primarily because we've lost most of ours. It's not a situation I'm exactly happy with, but at the same time it's nice to know that someone has our back until our idiots have sorted themselves out. However, if the US decided to cut back again on USAFE bases then I'd fully understand and support their decision, it is after all their military. I do ponder, if perhaps the US, and other nations, need to do a hard reset on their finances, start a new peg system for it, stop any inflation and so forth. It's a tricky situation, and I really don't understand finances enough to be assertive on the subject, but it's not getting any better and whether this is due to a 'welfare state' or high military spending I do not know, but I think that both the US and other nations are fast approaching the point where a drastic measure is called for.