[REL] Open Horizons II (old thread)

[gap]

Hi Zedi,

as requested by you some posts ago, even not being an expert in WWII history, I am trying to collect useful information for editing the DesSides.cfg file. Anyway, before getting committed with this time requesting task I have some question for you and the rest of the Das Campaign team:

• Is anyone taking care of it yet. I don't want to step on the someone else's feet;
  
• If the answer to the first question is NO, can you please provide me with a starting and ending date for the new campaign and with a list of nations that you plan to include in it?
  
• Besides the diplomatic status of the involved nations in various phases of the war, I could see how the former affected their shipping traffic. I make myself clear: after getting conquered, some nations became Axis puppet states (f.i. Albania, French Vichy regime, etc.) with limited autonomy (so probably they kept their civil fleet), wereas some other nations were totally subdued, and we can reasonably suppose thet thieir navy/civil fleets were disbanded/seized.
  On the other hand I could investigate what the involvment of different nations was at various times/operation theaters: some of the nations merely partecipated to the naval war as target merchant traffic wereas other nations had also an active role in naval war, especially in some key areas, with warships deployed with different orders. So, if you think that it can be of some help for you, for every nation and every strategic location (mediterranean, north sea, north atlantic, etc.) I could try to collect historical information on:
  - presence and type of generic civil shipping traffic;
  - presence and number of deployed warships, organized in classes;
  - common operation areas/routes for nation's navy (if present);
  - common orders for different warship types (patroling, escorting, land attack, troop/armament transport, etc.) in the given area;
  - airforce presence
  - etc.
  What do you think about it?
• If you want I can also provide historical national flags/navy ensigns for the new nations. I have made many of them for my personal use yet.

Finally, I've one last (maybe nooby) question. Are you planning to include in the new campaign this excellent mod by thfeu58 (indedd with the author's permission)?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=168545&page=8

I think you know it: it added to the old campaign a lot new harbors with merchant traffic by many nations not featured in the stock game. I think it is a needed addition together with the historical convoys/generic traffic designed by you!

[Zedi]

Im sailing in uncharted waters with the mixed convoys. Im not using any mod, I build up all from scratch. What I dont know is what will happen if I mix ships in convoys. For example, if I rebuild a HX convoy where were sailing ships under Panama. Greece, Sweden and other nations flag.

This is a very tricky situation and I need to be very careful when I mix convoys, so there will be no surprises like a mixed convoy leaving Halifax with 50 ships and end up in Liverpool with 10 because in the meantime half of the convoy changed their war status. So what I need is a very good DefSide.cfg where all nations status are set with historical accuracy, so I can track their status when I place these nations in the convoys.

Gap, I wil pm you the DefSide.cfg Im using now, please take a look on it and see if is well done, if not.. please correct it. I really dont have time to do this research, and Trevally is also busy doing his part of work on the campaign. So if you can help on this, please be so kind and help as you can.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Zedi

Im not using any mod, I build up all from scratch.

I really think you shoud have a look to that mod that I was referring to (AFAIK it is also included in Magnum Opus): it adds so many new ports to the game that you can use at your will for creating shipping traffic between them!
But it also features some heavy reworks on the yet existing harbors (for instance it added the Kiel and Brumsbuttel entrances to the Kiel Canal)...

Originally Posted by Zedi

For example, if I rebuild a HX convoy where were sailing ships under Panama. Greece, Sweden and other nations flag.

COOL!

Originally Posted by Zedi

For example, if I rebuild a HX convoy where were sailing ships under Panama. Greece, Sweden and other nations flag.

This is a very tricky situation and I need to be very careful when I mix convoys, so there will be no surprises like a mixed convoy leaving Halifax with 50 ships and end up in Liverpool with 10 because in the meantime half of the convoy changed their war status. So what I need is a very good DefSide.cfg where all nations status are set with historical accuracy, so I can track their status when I place these nations in the convoys.

Agreed, we need a careful balance for the upcoming campaign, and for doing so we should start from historical information as accurate as possible. I sincerely admire your in patience in carrying on the task of combining all the pices and making them to come alive!

Originally Posted by Zedi

Gap, I wil pm you the DefSide.cfg Im using now, please take a look on it and see if is well done, if not.. please correct it. I really dont have time to do this research, and Trevally is also busy doing his part of work on the campaign. So if you can help on this, please be so kind and help as you can.

Ok Zedi, I started working on it; I've got some remarks already:

• In the .cfg that you sent to me, end of hostilities is set to August 26th 1945. This date seems to me only relevant for the end of the war between Japan and USA (see here: http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1945/aug45/f26aug45.htm) that happened few months after the German capitulation. Instead I would use the date of German surrender ratification, i.e. May 8th 1945 (http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1945/may45/f08may45.htm). Do you have a better option?

• the start of ostilities with some countries happended several months before the official declaration of war. Take this case for instance:

"By 1941 the United States was taking an increasing part in the war, despite its nominal neutrality. [...] British forces had occupied Iceland when Denmark fell to the Germans in 1940; the US was persuaded to provide forces to relieve British troops on the island. American warships began escorting Allied convoys in the western Atlantic as far as Iceland, and had several hostile encounters with U-boats.
The first time Americans engaged in hostile action after September 1, 1939 was on April 10, 1941, when the destroyer USS Niblack attacked a German U-boat that had just sunk a Dutch freighter. The Niblack was picking up survivors of the freighter when it detected the U-boat preparing to attack. The Niblack attacked with depth charges and drove off the U-boat. There were no casualties onboard the Niblack or the U-boat.
In June 1941 the US realized that the tropical Atlantic became dangerous for unescorted American merchant vessels as well. On May 21, the SS Robin Moor, an American vessel carrying no military supplies, had been stopped by U-69 750 miles (1,210 km) west of Freetown, Sierra Leone. After its passengers and crew were allowed thirty minutes to board lifeboats, U-69 torpedoed, shelled and sank the ship. The survivors then drifted without rescue or detection for up to eighteen days.
One could argue that either the casualties inflicted on USS Kearny by U-boat U-568 on October 17, 1941 or the sinking of the USS Reuben James by U-552 on October 31, 1941 might be considered the first American losses of World War II."
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar..._II#Lend-Lease

The declaration of war between USA and Axis powers happened only a few months later, on Dec 11th 1941 (http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1941/dec41/f11dec41.htm).
Another example:

"Although Brazil was technically neutral, the increasing cooperation with the Allies led the Brazilian government to announce at the Pan American States Conference in Rio on 28 January 1942 its decision to sever diplomatic relations with Germany, Japan, and Italy.
As a result, from the end of January to July 1942, German U-Boats sank 13 Brazilian merchant vessels. In August 1942, U-507 sank five Brazilian vessels in two days, causing more than 600 deaths:
On August 15, the Baependy, traveling from Salvador to Recife, was torpedoed at 19:12. Its 215 passengers and 55 crew members were lost.
At 21:03, U-507 torpedoed the Araraquara, also traveling from Salvador towards the north of the country. Of the 142 people on board, 131 died.
Seven hours after the second attack, the U-507 attacked the Aníbal Benévolo. All 83 passengers died; of a crew of 71, only four survived.
On August 17, close to the city of Vitória, the Itagiba was hit at 10:45, with a death toll of 36.
Another Brazilian ship, the Arará , traveling from Salvador to Santos, stopped to help the crippled Itagiba, but ended up being the fifth Brazilian victim of the German submarine, with a death toll of 20.
In all, 21 German and two Italian submarines were responsible for the sinking of 36 Brazilian merchant ships, causing 1,691 drownings and 1,079 other casualties. The sinkings were the main reason that led the Brazilian government to declare war against the Axis.
[...]
Ultimately, the government found itself with no alternative but to declare war on Germany and Italy on August 22, 1942."
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazili...(FEB)#Overview

In your opinion, wich dates should we keep in our game for these ambiguous cases?

[Trevally.]

Glad your on the team Gap

Originally Posted by gap

• In the .cfg that you sent to me, end of hostilities is set to August 26th 1945. This date seems to me only relevant for the end of the war between Japan and USA (see here: http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1945/aug45/f26aug45.htm) that happened few months after the German capitulation. Instead I would use the date of German surrender ratification, i.e. May 8th 1945 (http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1945/may45/f08may45.htm). Do you have a better option?

[SideEntry 9]
Country=German
Side=0
StartDate=19450509
EndDate=19451231

With this entry, the Germans switch from Axis to neutral on May 9th.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Trevally.

Glad your on the team Gap




[SideEntry 9]
Country=German
Side=0
StartDate=19450509
EndDate=19451231

With this entry, the Germans switch from Axis to neutral on May 9th.

Thank you Sir, I will do my best for serving our cause!

I see what you mean: I was thinking that the side definition was relative to Germany, but it seems that the war can go on even if Germany is out of game. Am I correct?

[Zedi]

This is the dilema I have and I need somebody good at history and these details, so I will not make mistakes I will regret later. Details like this needs a lot of time for research and reading, exactly what I dont have.

There is also another dilemma I have .. Panama during ww2. They had a lot of issues with US, but they were also hostile with the axis forces. Also, many countries registered their ships under Panama flag for various reasons and these ships have sailed in many convoys. In game, Panama is listed as enemy starting 41 or something but im not sure how accurate is this.

We plan to end the campaigns at 09 may 45, on Germany surrender. Is no point in adding new ports, I better spend time to improve the existing ones. Kiel is already done and is very different from the stock game. Graff Zeppelin is also docked there, planes fly above the port etc. Where possible, Im using old ww2 photos of these ports and try to make stuff as much accurate I just can.

Overall.. im crazy and I have no logical explication why Im doing this. But I just cannot stop. Many thanks to all who help in any way possible. Special thanks to Trevally, he did such a great job by placing the buoys all over the map and working out half of the campaigns.

[THE_MASK]

In port the zombie ships sit way too low .

[SteelViking]

Originally Posted by sober

In port the zombie ships sit way too low .

I have tested the zombies in open ocean, and they behave 100% fine. Something in port must be messing with them.

Right now, I left all their collision and damage model stuff so that they could still be ran in to, sank, etc. I can remove it and see if that fixes the problem, as maybe it is some weird interaction with the wharfs.

[Trevally.]

Originally Posted by gap

Thank you Sir, I will do my best for serving our cause!

I see what you mean: I was thinking that the side definition was relative to Germany, but it seems that the war can go on even if Germany is out of game. Am I correct?

If you use "open Horizons" the last campaign will end :-

[Campaign]
NameId=BlackMay43
Title=Campaign.Title
Description=Campaign.Description
StartDate=19430301
EndDate=19450509
IsStartingCampaign=false
RequiredSubTypes=
RequiredProfileAchievements=
RequiredCareerAchievements=Arcticconvoys41_Defeat, BlackPit42_Defeat,DistantWaters42_Defeat

So as you can see the game ends on the same date.

If this date was changed to later in the year - I think your missions would continue but you would switch sides to neutral and have no ships to sink

[gap]

Originally Posted by Zedi

This is the dilema I have and I need somebody good at history and these details, so I will not make mistakes I will regret later. Details like this needs a lot of time for research and reading, exactly what I dont have.

My opinion is to use the date of the first engagement/skirmish/escort passage (prior to the declaration of war) as transition from the neutral state to the state of Axis or Allied nation on the DefSides.cfg file. Hopefully these cases of "early skirmishes" are not very common, they are relative to nations far from Europe (that is the arena of the first campaigns) and/or the first skirmisches lead by just few days on the declaration of war. In any of this cases the discrepancy between the date of first skirmisches and the beginning of open hostilities (let's call it "window period") will not affect so much the balance of the campaign as seen from the player's perspective.

Of course, in creating generic and "regular" traffic, especially by warships, you should be aware of actual histrorical involvment of any nation in naval war during different phases of the conflict.
In most cases (I hope it is possible with the use of Mission Editor!) during the window period you should keep the warship activity within a certain level (for instance patroling their homeland territorial waters, or keep watch off homeland ports), increasing it once that nation entered officially in war, in accordance to historical datas. Anyway this is not always true as, according to the example posted by me some hours ago, there are histrorical evidences that USNavy started escorting Allied convoys in Western Atlantic several months before USA entered in the conflict.

Finally, IMHO the ambiguity related to the window period can add some fun to the game. I make myself clear with an example: you're patroling your designed area when you meet a ship with the flag of the X country. You open the Flags of the world book and you read that according to it (but not according to defsides.cfg file!) by your current date X nation is not yet at war with you. The game freeze bug should be a sufficient deterrent from engaging the vessel. Anyway you may want to have a closer look into it (who knows? Maybe it is travelling in convoy with other -enemy- ships) but, once you're in range it spots you and surprise! it starts shelling you, declaring openly her hostility! Eveniences like this may be worth reading carefully radio messages with their reports about hostile activity, so to be aware about the risks you undertake when meeting other nation's shipping (I am quite sure that existing radio messages got historical records of such a kind of early skirmisches / international accidents, if not we can easily add the needed ones).

Originally Posted by Zedi

There is also another dilemma I have .. Panama during ww2. They had a lot of issues with US, but they were also hostile with the axis forces. Also, many countries registered their ships under Panama flag for various reasons and these ships have sailed in many convoys. In game, Panama is listed as enemy starting 41 or something but im not sure how accurate is this.

According to wikipedia Panama entered officially in war on Dec 7th 1941 following the Pearl Harbor attack by Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_...n_Pearl_Harbor).
Similar to other countries of the Pan American Union it didn't partecipate militarly into the Allied war effort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_...American_Union). The Panama Canal zone itself was under the control of USNavy and USAAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partici..._War_II#Panama). You may want to assign to this country only merchant shipping. The information provided by wikipedia should be doublechecked though.