Detailed Report of SEAL Team 6's Raid Released

[Platapus]

We do have some pretty quiet weapons, but not the sort you would want to take on a compound insertion mission.

On the suppressed MP5 that I got a chance to shoot once.

The loudest sound was the bolt and you would hear that in the next room (you may not know what the sound was, but you would hear the sound)

Besides, in Hollywood movies, do you notice that the bad guys who are shot with suppressed weapons always die quiet?

Well the real world is not like Hollywood. People die noisily.

[vienna]

What used to amuse me about silencers in movies and on TV was when they were used on revolvers...

[Platapus]

Yeah, and the size of the silencers also is good for a laugh.

A little two inch tube stuck on the end of a revolver - only in Hollywood.

What Hollywood does not know about guns can fill a large book

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Platapus

The loudest sound was the bolt and you would hear that in the next room (you may not know what the sound was, but you would hear the sound)

The teams back in the day would take a .22 or 9mm pistol with a silencer and remove the automatic reloading parts so it would only reload manually (like when you pull back the slide to chamber the 1st round) to get rid of that noise. They used it for killing guard dogs around VC villages. They called it the "Hush Puppy".

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

The teams back in the day would take a .22 or 9mm pistol with a silencer and remove the automatic reloading parts so it would only reload manually (like when you pull back the slide to chamber the 1st round) to get rid of that noise. They used it for killing guard dogs around VC villages. They called it the "Hush Puppy".

Those single shot guns were quiet. I once was able to attend a demonstration at CIA a million years ago. It was part of the OSS history display. They had exactly what you described: A modified High Standard (HDM).22. They fired it into a clearing barrel. Even in the secured hallway it was hard to hear. The bullet impacting the sand probably made more noise than the gun. I am still pouting that I could only watch from a distance.

They also had a Colt Woodsman but it was only for display. Could not even hold it.

[Stealhead]

The Hush puppy was a special Smith&Wesson 9mm automatic read about it in book by a Vietnam era SEAL he said that the suppressor(true term for a silencer) absorbed so much gas that that the slide was unable to action on its own so you had to pull the slide back manually after each round which limited the use of the gun for dogs they also used them when they did grab missions to kill any guards around the targets hooch.One SEAL with a Hush Puppy for each guard.They also made a suppressor for the M-16 but the SEALs never used them in combat because they had to cocked each round thanks to gas absorption and the lowered powder in the special rounds.

Modern suppressors are much better and wont limit the guns action and the trend today is more for sound reduction rather than total silence(which is a rather Hollywood notion anyway but a very good suppressor can make a gun not sound like a gun quite well) many sniper rifles attach a suppressor but still fire full power rounds which makes the rifle much quieter than without the suppressor and adds the benefit of almost no muzzle flash a side benefit of the suppressor absorbing gasses of course by using full power ammo the rounds will still be heard if they pass near by someone braking the sound barrier.

The SEALs probably used M-4s with suppressors(with full power ammo they will sound like a .22 pistol which with the ambient noise in a city would make them gather little attention) and or MP5SDs which have a built in suppressor and are pretty quite but fire 9mm.The M-4s would have only been heard for a block or so at most rather than throughout the whole town.

There is one revolver that can use a suppressor the Russian Nagant revolver but its ammo the shell casing went past the bullet and into the chamber giving it a seal and allowing a silencer to work any other revolver it would not work well.These special Nagants where sometimes used by Soviet Elite troops during WWII.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Besides, in Hollywood movies, do you notice that the bad guys who are shot with suppressed weapons always die quiet?

Well the real world is not like Hollywood. People die noisily.

Doens't it depend on where you shot them? A headshot=instant death no?

[Mush Martin]

Thats the movies, yes its instant an inch above and behind the ear,
but training is always double taps to the body as your far less likely
to miss and far more likely to do serious damage.

Headshots are for after action

[Stealhead]

Yep head shots are pure Hollywood most Spec Ops and tactical shooters train to fire fire "double taps" one or two rounds at center mass(chest) and then one to the head if needed.

The reasons for this are two fold first center mass is easier to hit from any range and unless they have heavy body armor is going to cause much trauma the second reason is even if the target has on body armor they are going to slump forwards from the two rounds hitting center mass(ideally near the heart/lungs) allowing the shooter a solid head shot where there is not going to be any armor protection.Also Spec OPs tend to prefer semi automatic controlled fire to fully auto fire with rifles.

I am reading a book about modern US Army and Marine(other DOD) snipers and over the past several years even they have trained to aim for center mass over head shots due to center mass being a much larger target and due the fact that one can line up a center mass shot much faster than a head shot.One Sniper team commander said that he ordered his men to focus on center mass shots and he said that their kill ratio went up substantialy.

Many lay persons do not realize that a head or rather the brain is a very small target and pretty easy to miss even for a very skilled marksman in a combat situation where as something like center mass is a much easier target to hit.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by joea

Doens't it depend on where you shot them? A headshot=instant death no?

depends on the weapon. No too long ago a Rochester Police officer was shot in the head with a .22 and survived.

[Stealhead]

Another problem with a "head shot" is that the persons brain must be hit to insure incapacitation not necessarily death but if the bullet lacerates certain areas it has a good chance of being fatal.If the bullet misses the brain or top of the spinal column it may only end up being a flesh wound that is painful but not fatal.

Most people do not survive high powered bullets to the head like say a 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm hit simply because the bullet has so much force behind it that it destroys the tissue in the general area of a hit which when you are talking the brain that is bad.

Lower powered rounds though like a .22 you can survive it all depends on range, where the round hits etc.Several people have survived .22 rounds to the head usually fired from a pistol.An aid to Robert Kennedy was hit in the head when Kennedy was shot by Surhan Surhan and he survived with full functionality.

The U.S. Representative that got shot in Arizona was hit in the brain by a 9mm bullet fired form a Glock 19 the bullet went through her head completely so it was probably a FMJ and not a JHP(hollow point) so also the type of round itself is a factor as well.

According to LOAC and the Hague Conventions armed forces are only allowed to use Full Metal Jacket rounds against enemy combatants hollow points,wad cutters and dumb dumbs are banned.So Bin Laden took FMJs when he went down.

[Platapus]

Just ask Phineas Gage about brain injury.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

He lived 11 years after his accident and was the subject of many brain studies after his accident.

[Stealhead]

The thing about bullets is it really depends on where and what they hit any round no matter how powerful wont do much damage if it goes through and through and hits nothing along they way soldiers have taken that kind of hit many times over the years and in some cases they just kept right on fighting.Other times they where out for a few days.

Then a tiny .22 bullet kills many people an ex police officer once told me that more people die from .22s than from any other type of round in the US (or at least this was the case when he was a homicide cop) he said the main reason was because most guns are fired at their victims at very close range at very close range the .22 can basically travel through a persons flesh like a pin ball thanks to its low weight but high velocity.

[Platapus]

One should never underestimate what a .22 round can do to a person.