Indiana Court rules that defending your home against illegal police entry is illegal

[Wolfehunter]

Only thing that is ringing to me is "Police STATE" no more needs to be said.

[Platapus]

Between this and the fact that the police, at least where I live, can pretty much shoot any dog any time they like, I might agree with you on this.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

how do i know? Because the police don't do assassinations, they are there to arrest you, not kill you. If however, you brandish a weapon at them like you suggest, you will have a good chance of getting shot.

Are you really that naive? If they knock on your door, which they usually do, and announce themselves, which they usually do, and give you a chance to come quietly, which they're supposed to do but often don't, then yes, it is your obligation legally, morally and intelligently, to obey and sort out mistakes later.

If anyone comes into your house unannounced then they are asking for whatever they get. You love to have the government tell you what to do, and you are of the "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" mentality. Maybe where you live the government comes first and the individual second. The State I live in believes that the individual is sovereign, and government agencies are obligated to support that idea. The cops I've met consider an armed citizen their best backup, and like the idea of having them around. You say you own a couple of guns, but you seem awfully terrified of them.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The State I live in believes that the individual is sovereign, and government agencies are obligated to support that idea.

That reminds me. I'll be driving a Penske truck up that way on the 26th.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

You say you own a couple of guns, but you seem awfully terrified of them.

no, I'm terrified of the idea of everyone who keeps a pistol by their bed thinking their Rambo, and shooting away at anyone when comes around. It scares me even more when people are so paranoid that they suggest even cops should be fair game. I think the combination of people with guns and the idea that the bogey man is around every corner or sound in the dark is a bad one.

also steve, "Chance to come quietly but often don't"? How many times have you been arrested? you know this for a fact? do tell...been seeing a lot of arrests lately?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

no, I'm terrified of the idea of everyone who keeps a pistol by their bed thinking their Rambo, and shooting away at anyone when comes around.

Actually, I keep a Mossberg 500 cruiser with a short length of pull stock and side saddle by the bed. I got rid of the pistol grip, for the same reason i'm using a shotgun. Hollywood and Rambo is a bunch of crap.

A shotgun is ideal because it doesn't have the same penetration that a rifle or handgun would have. I wouldn't want any rounds fired to pass through a couple walls and hit an innocent person. A shotgun is also slightly easier to hit a target center of mass in a high stress situation then a handgun or rifle.

It scares me even more when people are so paranoid that they suggest even cops should be fair game.

Nobody said they'd willingly shoot at a cop. Intruders yes.

I think the combination of people with guns and the idea that the bogey man is around every corner or sound in the dark is a bad one.

You must live in a nice safe neighborhood. Where I live, i grew up having to lock all the windows at doors at night because this guy was on the loose.

When i was in high school, we had no less then 6 drive by shootings, and i went to the good high school.

Just a couple weeks ago in the apartment complex we live in, a tenet was accosted at their mailbox, at gunpoint. That gunman then forced that tenet to bring him to the tenets apartment, where he proceeded to steal everything of value that person had... and we THOUGHT we lived in an "ok" neighborhood.

Paranoid? Hardly. The world can be a harsh place. ---- happens. Nobody is so special that it can't happen to them.

[Stealhead]

I consider a gun owner who has a concealed carry permit and a level head a pretty smart person to be honest I live in the woods and own several firearms most for target shooting or hunting but some are for my and my wife self defense I am not paranoid at all in fact I never even really put to thought a person doing a home invasion on me or blowing away sounds in the night not worried about the cops making a mistake I am good friends with several they'd know my address and speak up.That being said 2 weeks ago less than 1/4 a mile from my home way out in the sticks(the nearest gas station is 4 miles away the grocery store 15 miles nearest neighbor about 1000 yds away ) one ATF agent and two local deputies that where on an undercover drug and weapons buy got weapons drawn and fired own them by 3 "sellers" they exchanged several dozen rounds and one seller got hit in heart(dead) one in the neck(flesh wound) who ran into the woods right behind my property the other was unwounded and also ran into the woods.They hit one of the cops in the leg this at 2:00pm.

I was away from the house with my wife and daughter thank god.But you can believe that I would have been on the alert after hearing a volley of gun fire like that(the locals don't spray rounds down range like that)Clearly it possible that either of those two drug sellers hat ran might have attempted to enter my house at which point if I where home and having heard the gun battle and see a dude running up with a gun in his hand I would have yelled at him to stop make clear that if he did not I'd fire on him If he was a cop hed have said so a criminal either would have kept running or shot at me or stopped(though they had already tried to kill other people who turned out to be cops so I do not think he would have stopped) of course this did not happen that day but it could have.Do I fear for my life after that day?Nope Im more concerned about a drunk driver killing me or falling of a ladder 30 ft in the air at work honestly.But that does not mean that I wont have a means to defend myself from a person seeking to use deadly force against me and you cant know who might try that either I own firearms I know how use them safely and 95% of gun owners are the same way there always 5% nuts when it comes to anything.


Gimpy says that he owns firearms yet he seems to be rather against them and says all the kinds of things that people who are admittedly against firearms tend to say:"the paranoid unsafe gun owner" "the Rambo wannabe" This is the kind of thing my stepfather says and he hates firearms with a passion.Im sorry but it seems that most people that say they are so fearful about how others might use their firearms are often not owners or have little experience with firearms themselves.I am not calling you out Gimpy perhaps you do own the firearms you mention Im just saying for being a gun owner you have a very anti-gun attitude in you posts.They train you in a conceal carry class you know; not to be like what you are so fearful of Gimpy another reason I question your claims surely being a gun owner you'd know those who have CCs and have discussed the training with them.I'm sorry but it just seems like a KKK member saying that he loves to help old African American ladies cross the street and loves volunteer at the local Synagogue in other words you seem highly to highly contradictory in your ownership of gun/fear of what gun owners might do with guns statements.


I know many people who own firearms and have conceal carrys from different walks of life and political views at gun ranges and the like I cant really say that I have meet anyone who fits this uber paranoid unsafe blow a person away for simply trespassing I love Rambo types pretty sure that they dont exist in other words there are very few gun owners who feel/act this way and I honestly feel that some don't really own firearms or are just talking smack to sound tough.


I agree with the others on this issue by and large and there are cases where the police raid the wrong place some have been mentioned it does not happen everyday but it happens.The fact is no one if they where an innocent person could know for sure if someone comes kicking your door in who they are and anyone doing this police or other wise is relaying on the element of surprise the violence of action so it stands to reason that in a case where the real police did not properly ID them selves that the person would attempt to defend them sleeves from the violence of action occurring before them this is a situation no one would wish to be in but clearly this event does occur.

To me it is a sticky spot I do agree that there are violent criminals out there where a SWAT style raid is needed the flip side of this coin is that due to the violence of action they employ in such raids it can be confusing to anyone inside whats going on.

[gimpy117]

my point is, if you are innocent why would you even need to fight back? go quietly and it will get sorted out, rather than getting into more trouble by shooting a cop. I know you aren't calling me out, but i could even give you a pic with timestamps of my guns, although i don't want to because I'm sleeping soon. I enjoy shooting sports, but sports only. I feel that guns only complicate things for most Americans. If a burglar or police officer entered my home right now, I would do everything in my power not to provoke a violent encounter (ie. not grabbing my guns and confronting the man who wants to rob me, not kill me), not only would shooting somebody weigh on my mind, but items are replaceable not the lives of my family and me (in the case of a burglar). Also if I was ever arrested wrongfully I would rather go in and be released (because I've done nothing wrong) than fight back and get the shooting of the police on my record.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

no, I'm terrified of the idea of everyone who keeps a pistol by their bed thinking their Rambo, and shooting away at anyone when comes around.

Then you are naive indeed, or only see what you already believe, rather than what is true. Pretty much everyone I know has a pistol handy, and not one of them has ever shot anyone, though I know of three separate intruders who heard a .45 rack-slide and were halfway down the block before the homeowner could draw a bead. We do have an ethos: never shoot anyone in the back.

It scares me even more when people are so paranoid that they suggest even cops should be fair game. I think the combination of people with guns and the idea that the bogey man is around every corner or sound in the dark is a bad one.

And even more naive, or else making it up as you go along. Not one of my friends believes in the bogeyman or sees anything around any corners. We do, however, investigate noises in our own homes, and do so armed, just in case. On the other hand not too long ago I was waiting for a bus, and the other guy at the bus stop had a pistol in an open holster on his hip. I noticed it, and didn't give it a second thought. I'm not in the least paranoid. If I'm stopped by a cop I'm very polite and tractable. If someone breaks into my home at night, not so much.

also steve, "Chance to come quietly but often don't"? How many times have you been arrested? you know this for a fact? do tell...been seeing a lot of arrests lately?

Personally? I've never been arrested. Stopped and questioned more than a few times, but never cuffed, never taken in and never charged with anything. My comment was directed at the earlier comments about cops breaking into a place because someone they were chasing ran into said place. And yes, I've seen a few arrests lately. Almost every one involved cops doing their jobs. I like cops. I don't like unidentified strangers invading my personal space.

I also don't see the government as my lord and saviour, or even as my friend. You trust government officials to make it right. I trust them to make it wrong.

[magic452]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

my point is, if you are innocent why would you even need to fight back? go quietly and it will get sorted out, rather than getting into more trouble by shooting a cop. I know you aren't calling me out, but i could even give you a pic with timestamps of my guns, although i don't want to because I'm sleeping soon. I enjoy shooting sports, but sports only. I feel that guns only complicate things for most Americans. If a burglar or police officer entered my home right now, I would do everything in my power not to provoke a violent encounter (ie. not grabbing my guns and confronting the man who wants to rob me, not kill me), not only would shooting somebody weigh on my mind, but items are replaceable not the lives of my family and me (in the case of a burglar). Also if I was ever arrested wrongfully I would rather go in and be released (because I've done nothing wrong) than fight back and get the shooting of the police on my record.

What you say here makes sense when you know it's the police , go and settle things later but the part I highlighted is what most are talking about. If the police do not announce their presents in a manner you can understand or even hear than things get complicated quickly.

All you know is someone is breaking into your house to steal things (that's burglary). When they find you at home it becomes robbery, if they are armed it becomes Armed Robbery a very serious crime. Such robberies often end up with the home owner getting beaten or killed, when the robber unexpectedly finds someone home and the thief wants to escape the more serious crime. A person committing a break in is not all the comfortable, when it escalated to armed robbery they don't always think rationally and bad things can happen. It happens ofter enough to be a concern to a home owner. This is the scenario the the guys are talking about.

I've come out of my bedroom armed twice. First was just some kids trying to steal a tire off my car because theirs had a flat. I let them go but called the cops saying there were suspicious people in the neighborhood.
They never did get a tire as I saw the car the next morning.

Second time was about 3 years ago. I heard the sound of a garage roll door slamming shut. I have the only roll door around that didn't have a auto closer on it. The sound was a partly open door falling down. I figured that it slipped and fell. I didn't see anybody by the time I carefully checked the house and than went outside.

These things can and do happen and many here feel it's better to be prepared than not. But you do want to be very careful when you pull a gun. People including you can get killed.

Magic

[Stealhead]

What I don't get gimpy is how do you know it is in deed the cops kicking in your door when they say nothing that your are just going to sit there and let them in?You seem to be ignoring this little bit of the discussion.

By your statements it seems that you are making up a situation where everything is known(the cops yelling "Police Search Open The Door!!!!") when the whole thing is about them not doing just that and also violating Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution by not saying who they are or showing a warrant and not needing one and you seem to have no issue with this...Gimpy you really trust your goverment(or your ideal government) way too much.When it should be a citizens duty to never fully trust his government.

You seem to be trying to turn this into a gun control issue when the simple fact is there would be no guns getting used safely,stupidly,paranoidly,or Ramboesquely(I think I just made two new words) or any other way if the state of Indiana choose to follow the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

[Platapus]

Well, Laura Bush has killed more people with her car than I have with my guns.

Your use of paranoid is also inaccurate in my case.

A paranoid person thinks that people are after him/her specifically. I do not believe that any criminal is targeting me specifically. I do, however, believe that criminals may choose me as their victim either randomly or without knowing my identity. It is this type of criminal that I wish to protect myself and my family against. This does not make me paranoid, it makes me careful.

There is a considerable difference between the two.

[gimpy117]

what Im saying is, If a robber breaks into my home, I'm not going to start a gunfight over my things that could possibly get me or my family killed. Armed robbers aren't thinking clearly sure, but what do you think their first reaction is going to be when you put a gun in their face? Items can be replaced, lives can't.

and what is a gun going to solve with a cop who enters illegally? there are a few options:

-cop comes in, you pull a gun
1. you get the cop, you win, for an hour...the cops roll in a swat team. good luck with that
2. the cop shoots you, you're dead...chances are he's already got his gun drawn
3. you get into a gun battle with the police and survive, you get booked for attempted murder

you see what im getting at? Why would you EVER shoot at the police if they enter?? you are better off dealing with it peacefully. Crooked or not, a cop wouldn't break in your door unless he had a good reason, and using violence only will get you into deeper trouble. There's this disconnect with reality where a gun is supposed to solve everything....but there a repercussions even when shooting a robber. It's not that simple

[August]

You're not listening Gimpy. Nobody here is advocating shooting at the police.

The problem twofold.

First is if the cops do not announce their presence when then they put themselves in a position of being shot at by a homeowner who does not know they are the police.

Secondly is the constitutional issue which cannot be bypassed unless in the most dire and immediate of circumstances, like someone is being assaulted or murdered and breaking in is the only way to stop it.

All other situations need a judges permission. That's the law. End of story.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by August

First is if the cops do not announce their presence when then they put themselves in a position of being shot at by a homeowner who does not know they are the police.

I know you aren't advocating shooting them, but you are trying to rationalize shooting them by saying "what if you don't know they're cops at night" etc. etc. The problem is, any home defense gun owner should make a diligent inquiry as to who they are about to engage before opening fire...so if you shoot an officer, chances are you were unaware they were police because you didn't bother to find out, and are not in a position to claim self defense because you were not able to make a judgement that use of deadly force was absolutely necessary...so then it is still illegal...if unintended. Just because the police don't announce who they are does not mean you ought to, or have the right to open fire on the spot.