Indiana Court rules that defending your home against illegal police entry is illegal

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

On the other hand if someone kicks in your door you can be pretty sure they have harmful intent, which makes it a problem if it's the representatives of the law doing the kicking. How do you know they're really the police? How do you know the police aren't there to just kill you? You don't.

how do i know? Because the police don't do assassinations, they are there to arrest you, not kill you. If however, you brandish a weapon at them like you suggest, you will have a good chance of getting shot.

[August]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

how do i know? Because the police don't do assassinations, they are there to arrest you, not kill you. If however, you brandish a weapon at them like you suggest, you will have a good chance of getting shot.

How do you know they are the police?

[vienna]

You might find this interesting:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-1272.pdf

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by August

How do you know they are the police?

Usually the part where they are wearing Uniforms, and tend to yell police all the time.

I see what you are doing though, you're trying to set up some hypothetical situation where an evil assailant is going to impersonate a police officer and the good homeowner saves the day by blowing him away. Personally I think thats pretty wishy washy, and just another one of those NRA stories to attempt to justify carrying a gun everywhere, or the right to automatically shoot anyone on your property you don't trust. I may be exaggerating with the last two statements, but the truth isn't too far off.

[Ducimus]

At night, in a dark house, bleary eyed having been woken up by a loud noise, I doubt you'd notice uniforms. Just dark clothed intruders, in your dark house, with weapon mounted lights that only further trash your night vision and ability to identify who they are. If your already woken up, and assuming you've got your home defense piece, odds are your going to shoot if you can't ascertain their identity. I know i would based on that scenario alone.

I don't expect to hear, "Police!" and even if i did, id yell, "Show me some ID!", or "Prove it!" or something along those lines before id put my weapon down and step out of cover.

Odds are though, if its a raid, you won't have time for any of that. You just be rudley awaken to a flashlight and gun muzzle in your face.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

At night, in a dark house, bleary eyed having been woken up by a loud noise, I doubt you'd notice uniforms. Just dark clothed intruders, in your dark house, with weapon mounted lights that only further trash your night vision and ability to identify who they are. If your already woken up, and assuming you've got your home defense piece, odds are your going to shoot if you can't ascertain their identity. I know i would based on that scenario alone.

I don't expect to hear, "Police!" and even if i did, id yell, "Show me some ID!" or something along those lines before id put my weapon down and step out of cover.

Odds are though, if its a raid, you won't have time for any of that. You just wake up to a flashlight and gun muzzle in your face.

That sounds like a fair summarisation to me

[razark]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

Usually the part where they are wearing Uniforms, and tend to yell police all the time.

Except for:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

1. Police no longer must announce their presence when serving a warrant before entering the home - even if the door must be kicked, exploded or shot down, and they no longer have to seek a judge's permission to enter without announcing their presence.

I think Ducimus covers the reasons for not noticing the uniforms.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

At night, in a dark house, bleary eyed having been woken up by a loud noise, I doubt you'd notice uniforms. Just dark clothed intruders, in your dark house, with weapon mounted lights that only further trash your night vision and ability to identify who they are. If your already woken up, and assuming you've got your home defense piece, odds are your going to shoot if you can't ascertain their identity. I know i would based on that scenario alone.

I don't expect to hear, "Police!" and even if i did, id yell, "Show me some ID!", or "Prove it!" or something along those lines before id put my weapon down and step out of cover.

Odds are though, if its a raid, you won't have time for any of that. You just be rudley awaken to a flashlight and gun muzzle in your face.

yes and no, If it's a raid, they wait until they are in position to call out they are police, but by the time they are seen they are letting it be known that they are who they are. But still, their goal is not to kill you, but to arrest you. At night, chances are a person out to kill you isn't going to run around alerting you to his presence, it would be counter productive, even if he thought he could pretend to be a cop.

[Ducimus]

I think you watch too many cop show's Gimpy, and maybe your an incredibliy light sleeper. If your fast asleep, and wake up to a loud noise, odds are, all you hear is a loud noise. Your not going to be able to discern voice's or much anything else before that point. Your just going to hear... something.

As a recent, and funny example. My Fiancee recorded me snoring. She played it back while i was asleep. I shot up out of bed like a rocket with the ---- scared out of me because i thought I heard a snarling animal in the room. But it wasn't any snarling animal, just a recording of me asleep.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I think you watch too many cop show's Gimpy, and maybe your an incredibliy light sleeper. If your fast asleep, and wake up to a loud noise, odds are, all you hear is a loud noise. Your not going to be able to discern voice's or much anything else before that point. Your just going to hear... something.

so then you have the right to shoot at this unknown noise? what if it's your kid? your dog? Look, I get it "oh the police could sneak up in the night blah blah" But you really think you are going to blaze away into the night before you know what you are shooting at? Second of all, shooting at someone in this manner is probably illegal, because if you kill somebody when you cannot tell if they are armed or not, it would be pretty hard to prove that you "reasonably believed deadly force was necessary" Besides, Cops aren't going to kick in your door in the middle of the night unless you've done some serious stuff...

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

so then you have the right to shoot at this unknown noise?

If that noise you investigate turns out to be somebody who's not supposed to be there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

what if it's your kid?

Don't have one.

your dog?

He sleeps in our room. Odds are, i'll wake up to him barking anyway. He's a great watch dog.

Look, I get it "oh the police could sneak up in the night blah blah" But you really think you are going to blaze away into the night before you know what you are shooting at?

What, you think i'm going to shoot at any moving shadow in the dark that i see? LOL. Ever hear of the 4 basic rules of gun saftey?

Second of all, shooting at someone in this manner is probably illegal,

Again.... see castle law.

Besides, Cops aren't going to kick in your door in the middle of the night unless you've done some serious stuff...

Exactly. I have no reason to expect the cops! If they come to my house by mistake during the day, that's one thing. At night, thats a whole nother critter.

I have no reason to expect a police raid. I don't even have so much as a parking ticket. So if someone comes banging around inside my place at night, odds are, he shouldn't be there. And if he's someone that shouldn't be there, you have no idea of his intents, but you may assume the worst, and if you hesitate, your dead. Better him then me.

[gimpy117]

I was speaking more generally, besides Indiana law doesn't allow for just shooting without reasonably believing its necessary, I already explained that. You say you won't go shooting randomly, thats good...because when you identify it's the police you can put your gun away and kindly ask them to leave unless they have a warrant. If they don't, well your hands are tied because Using deadly force on a trespasser that isn't threatening your safety is as far as i know not allowed.

[Ducimus]

Gimpy, you don't like firearms very much do you?

[Platapus]

You can shoot pretty much anyone you want. Whether it is justified/legal mayl be up to a jury who wasn't there. Something to consider.

All it takes is one spunky ADA looking to improve his "image" to make a homeowner's day bad.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Gimpy, you don't like firearms very much do you?

I have a K-98 and a Mossberg 500 locked up under my bed right now