Demjanjuk Convicted for Role in Nazi Death Camp

[MH]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Not implying that he should get off free only because of his age. I was saying that if you're going to sentence someone to a jail term that will likely kill them - essentially sentencing them to death - then you had better have something that shows he was directly responsible for deaths at the camp...something better than flimsy 66 year old evidence of dubious origin, anyways.

For me the fact that he volunteered to serve at death camp to save his arse from being POW is enough.
He was supporting systematic killing of whole peoples
They had been brought in animal carriages and put to death.
So really w#$#$%
.....at list he had a trail.

[Penguin]

dubious evidence? As they could not prove that he killed someone himself, the whole trial was about assistance to murder in 28060 cases.

In the absence of specific evidence against him, the case against Mr. Demjanjuk rested on the prosecution’s charge that anyone working at the camp at the time he was there shared responsibility for its function of systematic murder.

And this is what the prosecution did prove in the trial.

And no, a prison sentence for an old man is not a death penalty. He could likely die in prison but he won't be killed by the prison - but by his age.
Prison is not worse than an old people's home for him - 3 meals a day, no labour, medical assistance, visitation hours, etc.
He already survided 2 years in custody - longer than most people in Sobibor.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Penguin

dubious evidence? As they could not prove that he killed someone himself, the whole trial was about assistance to murder in 28060 cases.


And this is what the prosecution did prove in the trial.

And no, a prison sentence for an old man is not a death penalty. He could likely die in prison but he won't be killed by the prison - but by his age.
Prison is not worse than an old people's home for him - 3 meals a day, no labour, medical assistance, visitation hours, etc.
He already survided 2 years in custody - longer than most people in Sobibor.

He was also imprisoned in Israel for 8 years previously.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by CCIP

He was also imprisoned in Israel for 8 years previously.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean, if it is just an addition of fact or if you think that the 8 years were enough.
Given, one could argue to settle this with the 5 years that he got now. But it was a different charge back then.
I'm not happy with Israel's decision to release him, but they forbid double jeopardy. It's also forbidden here, but the german basic law says that it is forbidden to punish someone for the same crime twice. He was not punished in Israel, but released of the charges against a person who goes by the name "Iwan Martschenko" - as he most likely was not this person. He was not charged for his own role in the camp, so it was perfectly legal to charge him here.

[Penguin]

For people with black humour - I have the opinion laughter helps to cope with the most terrible things:

Non german speakers can click at 1:40.
This is from the time when the trial in Munich began and many people believed that he exaggerated his illness.

I'm curious about your opinions of this video.

[AVGWarhawk]

What's the difference? He is guilty whether ill or not. He needs to start serving his time.

[Seth8530]

You guys are all sick. He was a guard for crying out loud. If he was abritrarly shooting prisoners it would be a diferent story. Prove to me that he killed prisoners and im all for giving him jail time if he in fact has not already served that time under a different countries hands..

Prison guards are members of a military and therefore should be treated as any soldier folowing orders would be. .

What would be the consequences if he had not followed orders and went awol instead?

[Skybird]

Wikipedia:

The Random House Dictionary defines the term "concentration camp" as: "a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc.", and, the American Heritage Dictionary defines it as: "A camp where civilians, enemy aliens, political prisoners, and sometimes prisoners of war are detained and confined, typically under harsh conditions."
[edit] Earliest usage of concentration camps and origins of the term

Polish historian W---322;adys---322;aw Konopczy---324;ski has suggested the first concentration camps were created in Poland in the 18th century, during the Bar Confederation rebellion, when the Russian Empire established three concentration camps for Polish rebel captives awaiting deportation to Siberia.[5]
The earliest of these camps may have been those set up in the United States for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s; however, the term originated in the reconcentrados (reconcentration camps) set up by the Spanish military in Cuba during the Ten Years' War (1868---8211;1878) and by the United States during the Philippine---8211;American War (1899---8211;1902).[6]
The English term "concentration camp" grew in prominence during the Second Boer War (1899---8211;1902), when they were operated by the British in South Africa.[6][7]
There were a total of 45 tented camps built for Boer internees and 64 for black Africans. Of the 28,000 Boer men captured as prisoners of war, 25,630 were sent overseas. The vast majority of Boers remaining in the local camps were women and children.

Note that this meaning of the term does not have much in common with what the efficient German tyranny turned KZs into. In German, they are often referred to as "Todesfabriken" (death factories), meanming both that the prionsers worked and suffered themselves to death, and produced death, with the context of the gas chambers not needing further explanation, I think.

So the traditional meaning of the Anglosaxon term "concentration camp" is somewhat misleading as a dewscription for the German camps.

The German concentration camps were no concentrated prisons, they were nothing like any of the camps listed in that article. They were designed to kill in masses, not to keep people as prisoners.

Let's cut it short. KZs were the closest imitation of hell man has ever created. While wars and revolutions, Stalin and Mao Tse Tung killed in even bigger scores, I think nothing comes close to the qualitative perfidity and cynism of the Nazi death factories.

[AVGWarhawk]

I would take what Sky has to say concerning this and run with it!

[August]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I would take what Sky has to say concerning this and run with it!

+ 1

[CCIP]

Another important thing to point out is that being a "regular prison guard" or "military prison guard" is grossly inaccurate for camps which, even when not designed to exterminate, contained thousands upon thousands of civilians who did not commit any crimes nor participated in any combat. So even if deaths were not a factor, I would consider being accessory to their imprisonment to be a very severe crime indeed.

And when I brought up the "8 years in Israel", I didn't really mean anything. Just stating an additional qualifier to your 'he's been in prison already'.

For myself, I think that as long as an opportunity exists to find any perpetrators, regardless of their age or the danger they present to society, it's worthwhile. Better they be held to responsibility directly than having people who weren't alive at the time debate which country is more guilty....