Effective use of the Mk27 Cutie

Thrair · 05-11-11, 07:59 AM

I've said pretty much the same thing before, but I'll say it again:

I've found cuties are only really useful for attempting to blow the props off ships in a convoy or task force so you can leave them dead in the water to finish off when the escorts leave (especially in shallow water). In that respect, they're actually fairly effective.
They also have limited use for torpedo attacks in stormy weather with thick fog. But, once again, you are relying on taking out the props, as they will not be enough to outright sink a ship.

However, anti-escort weapons they are not. Especially in TMO, as Armistead says. They rarely do enough damage to a DD to sink or even drive them off (*EDIT* Oh yah, and that's assuming they even hit. They're rather slow). You're much better off using regular torpedos on escorts.

A tactic I'm fond of for dealing with escorts is to let them steam directly towards me, then fire two mark 14s. I intentionally miss with the first torpedo by sending it on a course *slightly* to one side of the escort, then have the followup torpedo set to the other side to catch the escort while it swerves to avoid the first.

Stealhead · 05-11-11, 09:45 AM

Well this just shows you that everyone plays a little different because I find the cuties pretty useful only for killing DDs and useless for blowing props off why do that when you can "blow the hull off" with a regular torpedo?

For me if you use them in the correct situation they often kill a DD in one hit(TMO 2.0 have not used a cutie in 2.1 but I doubt the damage is different) and if I set them up right I get a kill 75% of the time.I do a agree that the DDT shot with regular fish is very effective though I will send a three spread to cover any possible jink.

The bottom line is the the cutie in real life was designed with killing a charging escort in mind and real life subs did successfully use them in this way and you can in game as well some boats also sank merchants with them the Barb in one hit but in a manner that SH4 does not simulate.Which simply shows that there is more than one way to successfully employ a weapons system in WWII as in the game just as different skippers in real life used tactics that worked for them that others did not employ.It does not mean that anyone is wrong it just means that there is more than one way and one could try them all and use the one they have success or create their own tactics.

Thrair · 05-11-11, 10:36 AM

I apologize if I came across as confrontational. I didn't intend to imply my opinion on cuties was the "correct" viewpoint, although re-reading my post, I can see how it might appear that way.

As to blowing the hull off with a regular torpedo, I fully agree. What I was getting at was in the odd situations where shallow water/escort/weather/finagle's law prevents getting a clean shot with regular torpedoes. This creates a (highly) situational niche use of attempting the prop-explodification.

Anthony W. · 05-11-11, 12:42 PM

I load 2 in the rears just in case of a DC run. IF they even guide in the first place, the damage just pisses them off enough to get them to break.

Like shooting a deer with a BB. All you're gonna manage to do is piss off the deer.

But I think I'll try some of the tactics - I learned a lot reading this

Great post - thanks

Daniel Prates · 05-12-11, 02:06 PM

I did some save-game experiences and tried out the cutie in several ways. They are a disapointment most of the time (in TMO at least). Basically, in 9 out or 10 situations it will lock on a DD, but not be in such an angle that it can hit it in an interception course - causing this ridiculous chase of a 12kts mine against a 30kts ship.

Although designed for anti-escort reasons, isnt' actually it more useful agains convoy ships? Imagine such a situation where you emerge too close or even inside a convoy - in such a position where you cannot aim and fire torpedos with the calm or room that you would want. Isn't this the perfect time to crudely aim some cuties and leave them to chase their targets as thei please?

As long as you draw the escorts elsewhere, they will follow the merchants (which speed is more suitable to the cutie), possibly cripling them.

Anthony W. · 05-12-11, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Prates

I did some save-game experiences and tried out the cutie in several ways. They are a disapointment most of the time (in TMO at least). Basically, in 9 out or 10 situations it will lock on a DD, but not be in such an angle that it can hit it in an interception course - causing this ridiculous chase of a 12kts mine against a 30kts ship.

Although designed for anti-escort reasons, isnt' actually it more useful agains convoy ships? Imagine such a situation where you emerge too close or even inside a convoy - in such a position where you cannot aim and fire torpedos with the calm or room that you would want. Isn't this the perfect time to crudely aim some cuties and leave them to chase their targets as thei please?

As long as you draw the escorts elsewhere, they will follow the merchants (which speed is more suitable to the cutie), possibly cripling them.

Those convoy ships are larger and take a lot more flooding to sink.

If you flood one average compartment in a DD, she'll be put out of action. 2 compartments in the same section of the ship, and its pretty much over.

The larger warheads of other torpedoes are better for sinking larger ships because the bigger explosion sets off explosions and starts fires. I bet that flooding alone from a torpedo hit didn't sink many ships - rather it was the resulting fire or explosion that took most of them down.

Daniel Prates · 05-12-11, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony W.

I bet that flooding alone from a torpedo hit didn't sink many ships - rather it was the resulting fire or explosion that took most of them down.

Indeed none of my cutie hits sunk a ship. They either rended the DD almost motionless, or semi-sunk but operational (I tried to emerge about 3500 meters away and try to sink it with the deckgun. Huge mistake).

Stealhead · 05-12-11, 10:41 PM

The larger warheads of other torpedoes are better for sinking larger ships because the bigger explosion sets off explosions and starts fires. I bet that flooding alone from a torpedo hit didn't sink many ships - rather it was the resulting fire or explosion that took most of them down.[/QUOTE]

The best way to sink a ship is to over whelm its crews abilities to control the damage suffered so you are right on this.That is why the general rule was to fire a three or four torpedo spread(more for a very large ship or capital ship) at various sections of ship the more spread out the damage the better the odds that the crew will be unable to maintain effective damage control and down she goes.Even a smaller tonnage ship has(talking real life WWII here) a good chance to survive a single torpedo hit so long as it did not break the ships back though many did go down due to over whelming flooding for sure maybe more than did by explosions alone a ship completely going up in huge explosion was actually pretty rare and was the talk of the town when a sub witnessed/felt it.In fact in WWII the hardest merchant vessel type to sink was any larger sized tanker due to the added bouncy of it load sometimes they took several hits to go down and often the ships that did explode like the Fourth were cargo vessels loaded down with munitions.

At Truk Lagoon in 1944 a Navy aircraft attacked a merchant loaded down with ammo and the resulting explosion was so powerful that it engulfed the attacking plane which was a few thousand feet away and nearly his wing men gives you an idea how hazardous a true surface attack could be.

When they did detailed studies after the war using Japanese data the US Navy found that many ships that appeared to have suffered serious damage and where listed as probables turned out to have made it back to port but in war that is still a loss some what because the ship will be out of service for a time being repaired.I am sure a few Japanese merchants that got hit by duds(in real life these would have penetrated the hull sometimes) that where patched up only to be sunk later by one that did work and others that survived solid torpedo hits only to go down a few months or years later.

The same can be said for the US Navy we had outstanding damage control crews on our ships and that saved us on more than one occasion like at Midway.

By the way Anthony if you are lookng for the most accurate ship damage/sinking simulation then you may want to give Real Fleet Boat a spin it is different in several respects from TMO but is just as good a super mod in its own way.

Armistead · 05-11-11, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrair

I've said pretty much the same thing before, but I'll say it again:

I've found cuties are only really useful for attempting to blow the props off ships in a convoy or task force so you can leave them dead in the water to finish off when the escorts leave (especially in shallow water). In that respect, they're actually fairly effective.
They also have limited use for torpedo attacks in stormy weather with thick fog. But, once again, you are relying on taking out the props, as they will not be enough to outright sink a ship.

However, anti-escort weapons they are not. Especially in TMO, as Armistead says. They rarely do enough damage to a DD to sink or even drive them off (*EDIT* Oh yah, and that's assuming they even hit. They're rather slow). You're much better off using regular torpedos on escorts.

A tactic I'm fond of for dealing with escorts is to let them steam directly towards me, then fire two mark 14s. I intentionally miss with the first torpedo by sending it on a course *slightly* to one side of the escort, then have the followup torpedo set to the other side to catch the escort while it swerves to avoid the first.

Totally agree, cuties were designed to take out props, the warhead was too small to do any other major damage. A few attacks were successful against small patrol crafts, totally worthless agains DDs.

I've tried several DTT shots from the stern on charging escorts with TMO 2 and 2.1 and got bow hits, never bothered DD's, but sank a few small escorts. The bigger issue is often the cutie would head directly at the bow but go right by and try to turn to follow the props, but couldn't make a radical enough turn and just went on away.

I long decided they're worthless except when I want to attack those late war large convoys in formosa, but I'll shoot them at escorts from about 90 degrees before I'm detected, that way they're going slow enough that cuties can catch them. Once detected I find them totally worthless,escorts go too fast.

I'll take M14's everytime. Nothing sucks worse when you have a nice capital ship damaged and going slow and all you have left is cuties that have no effect on large warships in TMO.

05-11-11, 12:42 PM	#4
Anthony W. Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 850 Downloads: 130 Uploads: 0	I load 2 in the rears just in case of a DC run. IF they even guide in the first place, the damage just pisses them off enough to get them to break. Like shooting a deer with a BB. All you're gonna manage to do is piss off the deer. But I think I'll try some of the tactics - I learned a lot reading this Great post - thanks __________________ Sunken Mustangs Proud Ford Mustang owner "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" - Admiral David Farragut Run silent - run deep - keep the baffles clear - targets front and center. Private pilot and history buff

05-12-11, 10:41 PM	#8
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	The larger warheads of other torpedoes are better for sinking larger ships because the bigger explosion sets off explosions and starts fires. I bet that flooding alone from a torpedo hit didn't sink many ships - rather it was the resulting fire or explosion that took most of them down.[/QUOTE] The best way to sink a ship is to over whelm its crews abilities to control the damage suffered so you are right on this.That is why the general rule was to fire a three or four torpedo spread(more for a very large ship or capital ship) at various sections of ship the more spread out the damage the better the odds that the crew will be unable to maintain effective damage control and down she goes.Even a smaller tonnage ship has(talking real life WWII here) a good chance to survive a single torpedo hit so long as it did not break the ships back though many did go down due to over whelming flooding for sure maybe more than did by explosions alone a ship completely going up in huge explosion was actually pretty rare and was the talk of the town when a sub witnessed/felt it.In fact in WWII the hardest merchant vessel type to sink was any larger sized tanker due to the added bouncy of it load sometimes they took several hits to go down and often the ships that did explode like the Fourth were cargo vessels loaded down with munitions. At Truk Lagoon in 1944 a Navy aircraft attacked a merchant loaded down with ammo and the resulting explosion was so powerful that it engulfed the attacking plane which was a few thousand feet away and nearly his wing men gives you an idea how hazardous a true surface attack could be. When they did detailed studies after the war using Japanese data the US Navy found that many ships that appeared to have suffered serious damage and where listed as probables turned out to have made it back to port but in war that is still a loss some what because the ship will be out of service for a time being repaired.I am sure a few Japanese merchants that got hit by duds(in real life these would have penetrated the hull sometimes) that where patched up only to be sunk later by one that did work and others that survived solid torpedo hits only to go down a few months or years later. The same can be said for the US Navy we had outstanding damage control crews on our ships and that saved us on more than one occasion like at Midway. By the way Anthony if you are lookng for the most accurate ship damage/sinking simulation then you may want to give Real Fleet Boat a spin it is different in several respects from TMO but is just as good a super mod in its own way. Last edited by Stealhead; 05-12-11 at 10:57 PM.

05-11-11, 07:59 AM	#1
Thrair Helmsman Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 102 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	I've said pretty much the same thing before, but I'll say it again: I've found cuties are only really useful for attempting to blow the props off ships in a convoy or task force so you can leave them dead in the water to finish off when the escorts leave (especially in shallow water). In that respect, they're actually fairly effective. They also have limited use for torpedo attacks in stormy weather with thick fog. But, once again, you are relying on taking out the props, as they will not be enough to outright sink a ship. However, anti-escort weapons they are not. Especially in TMO, as Armistead says. They rarely do enough damage to a DD to sink or even drive them off (EDIT Oh yah, and that's assuming they even hit. They're rather slow). You're much better off using regular torpedos on escorts. A tactic I'm fond of for dealing with escorts is to let them steam directly towards me, then fire two mark 14s. I intentionally miss with the first torpedo by sending it on a course slightly to one side of the escort, then have the followup torpedo set to the other side to catch the escort while it swerves to avoid the first.

05-11-11, 09:45 AM	#2
Stealhead Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 5,421 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Well this just shows you that everyone plays a little different because I find the cuties pretty useful only for killing DDs and useless for blowing props off why do that when you can "blow the hull off" with a regular torpedo? For me if you use them in the correct situation they often kill a DD in one hit(TMO 2.0 have not used a cutie in 2.1 but I doubt the damage is different) and if I set them up right I get a kill 75% of the time.I do a agree that the DDT shot with regular fish is very effective though I will send a three spread to cover any possible jink. The bottom line is the the cutie in real life was designed with killing a charging escort in mind and real life subs did successfully use them in this way and you can in game as well some boats also sank merchants with them the Barb in one hit but in a manner that SH4 does not simulate.Which simply shows that there is more than one way to successfully employ a weapons system in WWII as in the game just as different skippers in real life used tactics that worked for them that others did not employ.It does not mean that anyone is wrong it just means that there is more than one way and one could try them all and use the one they have success or create their own tactics.

05-11-11, 10:36 AM	#3
Thrair Helmsman Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 102 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	I apologize if I came across as confrontational. I didn't intend to imply my opinion on cuties was the "correct" viewpoint, although re-reading my post, I can see how it might appear that way. As to blowing the hull off with a regular torpedo, I fully agree. What I was getting at was in the odd situations where shallow water/escort/weather/finagle's law prevents getting a clean shot with regular torpedoes. This creates a (highly) situational niche use of attempting the prop-explodification.

05-12-11, 02:06 PM	#5
Daniel Prates Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Curitiba, Brazil Posts: 938 Downloads: 65 Uploads: 0	I did some save-game experiences and tried out the cutie in several ways. They are a disapointment most of the time (in TMO at least). Basically, in 9 out or 10 situations it will lock on a DD, but not be in such an angle that it can hit it in an interception course - causing this ridiculous chase of a 12kts mine against a 30kts ship. Although designed for anti-escort reasons, isnt' actually it more useful agains convoy ships? Imagine such a situation where you emerge too close or even inside a convoy - in such a position where you cannot aim and fire torpedos with the calm or room that you would want. Isn't this the perfect time to crudely aim some cuties and leave them to chase their targets as thei please? As long as you draw the escorts elsewhere, they will follow the merchants (which speed is more suitable to the cutie), possibly cripling them.