The national debt is the largest national security threat!

[MH]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

I would like to add that First Officer What-Ever-His-Name-Was? wants to take heading to Capitalism. Cut taxes, not to touch anyones entitlements or benefits and see if fuel tank magically fills...

American Dream.....


Maybe Americans need to accept the fact that taxes need to be uhm....adjasted.

[magic452]

To adjust taxes would only be giving them a bigger shovel to dig an even deeper pit for us to fall into. They would just spend it on pork barrel projects or social engineering (vote getting) programs.

NOTHING at all would be done about the deficit or debt just more spending.
The government needs to get out of most of the businesses it's in.

"He who governs least governs best." Don't remember who said that.

Is it too late, maybe but one thing for sure is we will find out soon enough.
If there isn't some real movement on spending in the up coming battle over the debt ceiling
there may be little hope left.

Magic

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by MH

American Dream.....


Maybe Americans need to accept the fact that taxes need to be uhm....adjasted.

As magic said, this will not work. It has already been tried. When a "compromise" has been reached higher taxes are levied, but the deal soon falls apart, as Congress has little discipline. After the promised spending cuts evaporate, all that is left are the tax increases. Really, the extra tax revenues just encourage Congress to spend more. Furthermore, higher taxes would almost certainly initiate a "double-dip" recession, and likely be counterproductive.

Unfortunately, I think the debt ceiling will be raised again. Very few in Congress seem to have the psychological toughness to do otherwise. I'm not sure they grasp the magnetude of the problem yet. I would not have much hope, were it not for the Tea Party folks. I think it all depends on the next election. If Obama and his counterparts in congress, have another four years to suck the life out of the nation, I think we will be utterly bankrupt.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Unfortunately, I think the debt ceiling will be raised again. Very few in Congress seem to have the psychological toughness to do otherwise.

I'm not sure you fully understand what would happen economically if it were not raised. You would revive the credit crisis of 2008. And you'd make it seem mild in comparison. Treasury yields would skyrocket because of the flood of investors, foreign and domestic, dumping their holdings. In a misguided attempt at austerity, you'd end up bankrupting the country with sky high interest rates. Those higher rates would freeze all borrowing by not only the government, but by business and industry. You'd crash the economy.

Money market funds would break the buck - you'd destroy every pension fund, public fund, retirement fund and investor in the country. You think your city/state/municipality has trouble now? If their cash holdings were wiped out, you'd see trouble for real. Good luck keeping a police force or firefighters when you have no money to pay them.

God help us if the people in charge of things have the same lack of economic understanding as those opposed to raising the debt ceiling do.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I'm not sure you fully understand what would happen economically if it were not raised. You would revive the credit crisis of 2008. And you'd make it seem mild in comparison. Treasury yields would skyrocket because of the flood of investors, foreign and domestic, dumping their holdings. In a misguided attempt at austerity, you'd end up bankrupting the country with sky high interest rates. Those higher rates would freeze all borrowing by not only the government, but by business and industry. You'd crash the economy.

Money market funds would break the buck - you'd destroy every pension fund, public fund, retirement fund and investor in the country. You think your city/state/municipality has trouble now? If their cash holdings were wiped out, you'd see trouble for real. Good luck keeping a police force or firefighters when you have no money to pay them.

God help us if the people in charge of things have the same lack of economic understanding as those opposed to raising the debt ceiling do.

The Gop knows they must raise the debt ceiling and they will, but they will posture and threaten for political purposes. Obama didn't creat this mess, he inherited it from both parties. Fact is he can do little about it, congress is mostly responsible. Bush with help from both parties started the mad debt. I think both parties lost a time to correct it, everything they do is still politics and special interest. If the GOP were in control, they would've done the same thing Obama did.

[Skybird]

And so the US is set to continue living on tick. Once again it is agreed on that tackling the debt burden - must be left to the next generation. Same song like in the past 50 years. While everybody really thinks this: we do not serve our debt duties anyway - not now, and not in the future. Basta!

Nixon's finance minister brought the American selfishness and irresponsibility to the point when saying: "It is our dollar, but your problem."

But the wakeup day will be coming, and not too far away it is. And then the pain and agony, the depth of the fall will be so much worse.

I must say I will withhold both compassion and sympathy on that day. Both would be completely undeserved.

Not that European politicians think differently. But the American example causes more distortions in the world than that of just one or two European countries, and the USD also is the biggest debtor in known history.

[Growler]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And so the US is set to continue living on tick. Once again it is agreed on that tackling the debt burden - must be left to the next generation. Same song like in the past 50 years. While everybody really thinks this: we do not serve our debt duties anyway - not now, and not in the future. Basta!

Nixon's finance minister brought the American selfishness and irresponsibility to the point when saying: "It is our dollar, but your problem."

But the wakeup day will be coming, and not too far away it is. And then the pain and agony, the depth of the fall will be so much worse.

I must say I will withhold both compassion and sympathy on that day. Both would be completely undeserved.

Not that European politicians think differently. But the American example causes more distortions in the world than that of just one or two European countries, and the USD also is the biggest debtor in known history.

tl;dr: Everything's America's fault.

Your comparisons are irrelevant; never has "known history" seen this many people, with this kind of technology, and this many complex problems.

As for your compassion and sympathy - well, if they're going to walk alongside your patronizing arrogance, go ahead and keep 'em - we're good.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Growler

tl;dr: Everything's America's fault.

Your comparisons are irrelevant; never has "known history" seen this many people, with this kind of technology, and this many complex problems.

As for your compassion and sympathy - well, if they're going to walk alongside your patronizing arrogance, go ahead and keep 'em - we're good.

Skybird has correctly predicted 10 out of the last 3 American recessions.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Growler

tl;dr: Everything's America's fault.

Spending more than what your economy can produce in income, is completely your own fault, yes indeed. If I buy too many things and accumulate more debts by credit card than I can pay back by my monthly income, nobody else but me is to blame. And I am the one to find a way to pay back my debts - nobody else.

Your comparisons are irrelevant; never has "known history" seen this many people, with this kind of technology, and this many complex problems.

No, your claim above is irrelevant, because number of people and technology has nothing to do with the basic problem outlined just one paragraph above. Also, America just repeats the very same mistakes european grand powers of the past 4 or 5 centuries have made time and again, practically all major powers have run bancrupt at least once in their history because they maintained bigger militaries on tick and waged more wars with borrowed money than they could afford, and had economical and fiscal structures in their countries that were not able to shoulder the burdens forever.

As for your compassion and sympathy - well, if they're going to walk alongside your patronizing arrogance, go ahead and keep 'em - we're good.

No, you are not. You are hanging on a fiscal drip. And arrogance - it is your nation being too arrogant to realise or admit its pathetic fiscal status and monumental structural economic problems - but nevertheless lecturing others on how to do economics - heavily biased economics tailored to allow you parasytically sucking money that is not yours.

You are walking on often tried paths, many empires before you walked the same paths like you do now. And you learn nothing from their examples and reasons why they fell. Not really bright.

Want to talk of arrogance any longer? You better don't. Sitting in a glass house, you maybe shouldn't throw with stones. You are not the solution to global economic problems nor do you have the potency anymore to provide them - you are one of the most prominent and major reasons for global economic crisis.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I'm not sure you fully understand what would happen economically if it were not raised. You would revive the credit crisis of 2008. And you'd make it seem mild in comparison. Treasury yields would skyrocket because of the flood of investors, foreign and domestic, dumping their holdings. In a misguided attempt at austerity, you'd end up bankrupting the country with sky high interest rates. Those higher rates would freeze all borrowing by not only the government, but by business and industry. You'd crash the economy.

Money market funds would break the buck - you'd destroy every pension fund, public fund, retirement fund and investor in the country. You think your city/state/municipality has trouble now? If their cash holdings were wiped out, you'd see trouble for real. Good luck keeping a police force or firefighters when you have no money to pay them.

God help us if the people in charge of things have the same lack of economic understanding as those opposed to raising the debt ceiling do.

I know that is the conventional wisdom. Maybe you are right, but I am not convinced. I accepted the doom and gloom scenarios at first; now I suspect they are mainly a tool to keep spending. That seems to be the plan, anyway. I said they should not raise the debt ceiling, I didn't say they should default. The Gov't would still have tax revenue. They could still spend money, they would just have to spend LESS.

Let's say you are right and higher debt is mandatory. What happens when the Gov't can't borrow enough? What happens when no one wants to lend? What do you consider a plausible way out of this mess?

Sorry but in my opinion you are little bit unfair to Mr. Obama. Most of the debt he is dealing with is not here because of his actions but inherited from his predecessors (no only Bush Jr.). I don't say Obama is any better but putting all blame to one man (as I undertand your text to mean, correct me as appropriate) is a bit unfair.

I am blaming Obama and he is destroying my country. I THINK OBAMA IS BEING UNFAIR TO ME.

Do you know anything about Obama? Do you know anything about the Federal budget or the U.S. Constitution? Bush was a mediocre leader, he allowed too much spending, without a doubt. Mostly he just kicked the can down the road and comprimised with the Dems.
Obama has spent much more than Bush. Under Bush, the bailouts were sold as an emergency one-shot infusion. Under Obama, we get a 2nd and a 3rd and ......(I've lost count now). All this "Stimulus" and the economy is worse now than before. He has also rammed through "Universal Health Care", which will cost over a trillion dollars and is in fact unconstitutional. The Fed is printing money, so prices are going up and everyone's savings are gradually becoming worthless. He is in short doing everything he can to make the Government larger and hamstring the private sector, when he should be doing the opposite. I could go on, but my fingers would be bleeding by the time I finish. He is, by far, the worst President we have ever had, and considering recent experience with Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, that's saying a lot.



P.S.:

In case you didn't pick up on it. I do resent people who live in foreign countries, having the attitude that I'm too stupid to know what's good for me and I should be grateful Obama is my leader.
IF YOU THINK HE IS SO GREAT - YOU TAKE HIM.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by TorpX

I am blaming Obama and he is destroying my country. I THINK OBAMA IS BEING UNFAIR TO ME.

Do you know anything about Obama? Do you know anything about the Federal budget or the U.S. Constitution? Bush was a mediocre leader, he allowed too much spending, without a doubt. Mostly he just kicked the can down the road and comprimised with the Dems.
Obama has spent much more than Bush. Under Bush, the bailouts were sold as an emergency one-shot infusion. Under Obama, we get a 2nd and a 3rd and ......(I've lost count now). All this "Stimulus" and the economy is worse now than before. He has also rammed through "Universal Health Care", which will cost over a trillion dollars and is in fact unconstitutional. The Fed is printing money, so prices are going up and everyone's savings are gradually becoming worthless. He is in short doing everything he can to make the Government larger and hamstring the private sector, when he should be doing the opposite. I could go on, but my fingers would be bleeding by the time I finish. He is, by far, the worst President we have ever had, and considering recent experience with Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, that's saying a lot.



P.S.:

In case you didn't pick up on it. I do resent people who live in foreign countries, having the attitude that I'm too stupid to know what's good for me and I should be grateful Obama is my leader.
IF YOU THINK HE IS SO GREAT - YOU TAKE HIM.

Pardon me my cliché question. Did you read what I wrote? I just said that putting all blame to Obama is unfair. I didn't say that blame goes equally to all. CLARIFICATION: Yes. You maybe correct that Obama have "wasted" more money than his predecessors. I still would not put all blame to him as although he may have "wasted" more economical problems still existed there before him. Why is wasted between quotation marks? Because I don't think we will know for sure yet whether spending all that money was useless or not.

My information on Federal budget is not as good as many Americans may have. That is hardly surprising isn't it?

What comes to Obama's "Universal Health Care". In principle I think it's good thing. However with current economical situation U.S. government just can't afford it. Period. Nor it can afford it's military which suck dollars like sponge suck water.

I don't like Obama's economical policies. Endless "stimulation" just will not work. It's nation size version of cardiopulmonary resuscitation. It either works and patient recovers or then not.

I believe to responsible budget policy. With that I mean designing budget so that country can put it in action with their own money (tax revenue etc.). Without endless need to loan money.

What puzzles me is that for some strange reason you seem to think that I almost pray in altar of Holy Obama the Savior. I don't. Although I like him more than religious Republican warmonger who would fit better to church's pulpit tnan White House (Yes. I'm talking about His Majesty King George II The Bush) I don't believe that he is much better than his predecessors.

By the way I don't think you are stupid but based on your last post I don't really believe you are smart either (sorry if I said this too straight). Ofcourse I maybe wrong. After all I'm just dumb European and we and dumb Asians, dumb Africans, dumb Martians et. al. don't always understand all so mighty Americans.

Additionally as my opinion. As long as your all so mighty United States of America with its holy dollar is world class debtor and neck high in yellow liquid but is still willing to stick its head to poo pile in the bottom and refuse to see problem in its financial policies your all mighty country's internal issues are damn much our problem too.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by TorpX

... I think it all depends on the next election. If Obama and his counterparts in congress, have another four years to suck the life out of the nation, I think we will be utterly bankrupt.

Sorry but in my opinion you are little bit unfair to Mr. Obama. Most of the debt he is dealing with is not here because of his actions but inherited from his predecessors (no only Bush Jr.). I don't say Obama is any better but putting all blame to one man (as I undertand your text to mean, correct me as appropriate) is a bit unfair.