Kindergartner brings gun to Texas school!

[onelifecrisis]

Having chewed on this for a while, I apologise for the sarcasm.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I have never heard of a gun owner trying to force non gun owners to own a gun.

I'm not pro or anti-gun, because I think that's the wrong stance. I see guns as a tool, it would be foolish to say that I am pro-hammer or anti-screwdriver.
That being said, I cannot understand the arguments of the gun lobby to fight for the right to carry on private grounds where the owner of the land forbids it. What's the deal about it, don't like the attitude, don't go there or just leave the guns in the car.

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Yes, but I didn't interpret it as a threat towards you. Just as a statement that there is no 100% safety, neither with guns nor without.
To add my 2c, I'm quite happy about our strict regulations regarding gun ownership here. We have very few people being killed by guns. On the other hand, I can understand that a country like the US can't be made gun free anymore. It's too deep in their culture and the country is already flooded with weapons so there is hardly a way to really reverse things.

Well it works in an Utopia where the police is always there to protect you, but this is not the case. Ever been in an ugly situation in Germany? If so, what was the response time?
I certainly don't want all idiots here to own a gun, but matter of fact is: many idiots own one. The latest statistics about illegal ownership in Germany are about 20%.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Penguin

That being said, I cannot understand the arguments of the gun lobby to fight for the right to carry on private grounds where the owner of the land forbids it. What's the deal about it, don't like the attitude, don't go there or just leave the guns in the car.

I not aware of any lobbying action that is focused on what you wrote. I have never heard of any gun organization that wants to insist on the right to carry on other people's private property when the property owner does not want it. Are you sure you are not confusing this with the issue on carrying on commercial property that is open to the public?

Even then, I have never heard of any gun organization lobbying for the right to carry on commercial property when the owner states that they don't want it.

Do you have a citation for this?

[Penguin]

I think I confused it a little, the discussion was not about carrying on the body but having with you in your vehicle on other people's private property. I've witnessed this discussion when I was in Alaka in 2006, I think it was the NRA who claimed it to be an unlawful restriction of gun ownership. Though the AKians elected the braniac women, I think it was a minor discussion and was not really an election-deciding issue. I'm checking out if I can find a flyer or other propaganda.
Here are the Ak gun laws:
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/AKSL.pdf
As you can see, the only restriction regrading the ground are this:

It is unlawful to possess a firearm in a courthouse or courtroom, grounds of a day care center or parking lot immediately adjacent to these structures, or within a domestic violence or sexual assault shelter.

and that regarding rights of property owners:

The state, a municipality or a person may not adopt
or enforce a law, ordinance, policy or rule that prohibits an
individual from possessing a frearm while that individual is
within a motor vehicle or prohibiting an individual from stor-
ing a frearm that is locked in the individual’s motor vehicle
while the motor vehicle is otherwise legally parked in or on
state or municipal property or another person’s property.

As I know the private (federal) rights of the property owner superceed other rights, however I think it's not a sufficent reason to ban someone from your property solely for carrying a gun, but it's legal to ban a person for many other reasons you like, like having a ****ty tie

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Penguin

The latest statistics about illegal ownership in Germany are about 20%.

What does this 20% mean? 20% of all people have a gun (seems a bit much to me)? 20% of all guns are illegal? Something else?

If 20% of all guns are illegal, what is it compared with the total population of Germany? Compared to the criminal population of Germany? Both these numbers compared to the same statistics about the US?

Just this "20%" number without further information says exactly nothing.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

What does this 20% mean? 20% of all people have a gun (seems a bit much to me)? 20% of all guns are illegal? Something else?

If 20% of all guns are illegal, what is it compared with the total population of Germany? Compared to the criminal population of Germany? Both these numbers compared to the same statistics about the US?

Just this "20%" number without further information says exactly nothing.

Was just about to ask the same. I don't believe that 20% of all Germans own guns.

[Penguin]

Ay caramba, sorry guys, I forgot to add a unit of measurement . The 20% refers to the number of all households, I think most guns stats measure this way.
I will break down the numbers for you tomorrow, as I have a busy Easter weekend and don't want write something quick without the appropriate links/referals.

Hope y'all enjoy your weekend, too at the sub-tropical temperatures we have here!

[Penguin]

The report where they mentioned the 20% estimation is not longer online, only the website of the report: http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendunge...besitz100.html (sorry international folks: the links which I can provide are in german only)

But I can give you a breakdown of the numbers:
Germany has no central register of guns, ony the numbers of legal owners are somehow clear: it ranges mostly in the range of 3.5 - 4 million people. It is unclear how many of them live in the same household, so let's say that we are talking at least about 2-3 million households. The number of guns, these legal owners own are at least 7 million (the mimal estimate) - while most experts estimate about 10. The number of illegal guns is estimated by the police union (GdP) at about 20 million. Most other stats refer to this number. The pro-gun lobby talks about numbers up to 40 million (http://www.rp-online.de/panorama/deu...id_684470.html). Lars Winkelsdorf, who wrote an anti-gun ownwership book, estimates the same 40 million (http://www.onejournal.de/item/politi...d-pr80712.html)

We have 40 million households in Germany, so these 20 million illegal guns of the conservative estimations, would be in 8 million households to reach the quota of 20% - note that in these numbers are also households of legal gun owners included who have illegal guns, but these numbers are marginal, as in most controls by the authorities, the most infractions they find are about the storage, not illegal ownership.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

Having chewed on this for a while, I apologise for the sarcasm.