Gameplay or Realism? Which do you prefer?

[supersloth]

for me realism=good gameplay

[Trav_R]

So far it sounds like pretty much everyone prefers realism to a fairly high degree, with the only difference being where we draw the line. If the question were instead "where do you guys draw your line" then this question would probably lead to a debate and a bunch of name calling. Good thing there's no need for that, as SHIII + all the mods we have allows for all of us to find our happy middle ground, or our happy balls to the wall realism ground.

I'm in agreement with the idea of being able to manually operate a lot of the machinery on board if I feel like it at the time. That kind of option would benefit realism lovers and those who prefer not to have to deal with it. If you're not at the dive planes, then the crewman that you have assigned to the dive planes will operate them. If you're not opening the valves to flood the tanks, then someone else will do it. Of course I'd hate to have to constantly be jacking with the valves, but it'd sure be cool to be able to do it if I feel like it now and then.

Any of you guys played B-17 Flying Fortress? That's the way it is, there are 10 crewman on board your bomber, and you can "be" any one of them, or none of them. If you're not manually controlling any of them, then the plane flies itself, defends itself against fighters, and drops bombs on its own. You can of course jump to any of these positions at any time. Bombing is especially fun with the mostly realistic Norden bombsight, which was designed for the game by a real WWII bombardier. That kind of ability would have been great in this game, but hell you can only ask for so much of the devs, and I'm not complaining this sim rocks the way it is.

Okay, don't want to turn this into a B-17 thread but I thought it was pretty relevant to the discussion.

Gameplay every time, had enough "Realism" in RL to last me a life time. A game is ment to entertain. If I wanted to be bored out of my brain I'd resign back up.

The bigger the bang the better !

[Excalibur Bane]

Originally Posted by Cdr Gibs

Gameplay every time, had enough "Realism" in RL to last me a life time. A game is ment to entertain. If I wanted to be bored out of my brain I'd resign back up.

The bigger the bang the better !

You and me both, I think we're in the minority of two.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by marhkimov

Agreed.

DITTO!!!

As a rule I don't generally 'play games'. I like certain aspects of history, and I like certain machinery. Shooters don't appeal to me at all. From a U-boat sim I prefer maximum realism, but, that said, only up to a point. I don't play in 'Real Time' except during the attack-and-defend phases. I like the mods that make contacts more realistic, and, using TC, I don't mind if my crew doesn't see an enemy ship for weeks on end (though you wouldn't know it from my logs-I have my captains complain a lot).

I'm also nutty enough that I don't reload my external torps unless I have dead calm seas and come to a complete stop first.

Realism for me...as much as a game can be realistic.

[Highbury]

Originally Posted by jason210

Also, I would like to see functional, controllable sub-systems. We should be able to operate valves and hydroplanes, engines, rudders and a range of similar items manually if we wish to. Not on 2D panels, but proper 3D equipment. Then there's the opening and closing of hatches and torpedo tubes.

One should be able to choose betweenn crew management ofl equiopment and controls, and 1st person management. There could be a range of crew management templates to use.

Originally Posted by K-61

As the commander of the boat, it is not my duty to manipulate valves and dive planes. It takes the combined efforts of many crew members to operate the boat, I just have to give the appropriate orders.

K-61 answered that perfectly for me. Obviously some of you disagree. For me I like realism as it helps the immersion into the preiod we are trying to recreate. If I have to manage systems that a boat's commander would not have had to, it ruins my immersion. For me it is about playing my 'role' within the game.

Now that said, if a simulator came out where you could 'role-play' as just a member of the crew, not the commander. Working your way up learning new jobs and resposibilties.. that may be interesting.

[TteFAboB]

I like the idea about operating valves and other stuff on the U-Boat.

There are some highly advanced payware Aircraft for Flight Simulator that have TONS of features and let you switch and interact with virtually every button and switch you can find on the cockpit, that's not what the pilot do, actually during a take-off on a 747 the real pilot would have the co-pilot ready to reverse the engines in case the take-off is aborted, in the simulator you have to reverse it yourself, there is no co-pilot! You have to raise the gear, you have to set the radios, everything is up to you, you are the pilot AND the co-pilot and that's FUN, of course, however, it would be best to have an "AI" Co-Pilot available for reality fidelity, since it's impossible to come up with a good faithfull INTELLIGENT Co-pilot, they leave you alone in the cockpit, a cockpit where everything really works and can be interacted with.

In SHIII it's the contrary, these submarines are far more complex and difficult to operate than a 747 and you need more than 2 crewmembers to get it working, however, it would be very cool if you could right-click the dive-plane operator and get into his shoes at his station and control the dive-planes yourself for the fun of it, or anything else, granted you'd need AI to operate the stations you're not on, which we already have, so unlike FS we're missing the option to manually operate the sub instead of missing proper AI to assist you, it would be an interesting addition for a full immersion SIM, like that Space Shuttle Sim that also lets you operate every single button and function, even though without proper AI assistance, we're either missing one or the other, is there any Sim out there that lets you operate a vehicle with more than 1 crewmember aboard?

[Marhkimov]

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

is there any Sim out there that lets you operate a vehicle with more than 1 crewmember aboard?

B-17 The Mighty Eighth.

That game was not without it's flaws, but it did allow you to play as various crew members while the AI took 100% control of the other stations. Gunners, bombardier, radioman, and pilot... It was a highly memorable experience.

OT, but B-17 The Mighty Eighth had the MOST exciting rendition of flak, EVER!! IMHO even better than the CFS and IL2 series'. I was inspired to buy new speakers for my computer, and a SUBWOOFER! Let's just say that flying a B-17 through flak became a hair-raising experience.

[Trav_R]

What he said. That flak in that game is just unbelievable. It's hard to focus on the bomb run when you really just want to watch and hear the flak. Also watching your bombs rip your target apart, followed 10 seconds later by the deafening rumble from below. Oh man, what an awesome game.

[FesterShinetop]

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

in the simulator you have to reverse it yourself, there is no co-pilot!

is there any Sim out there that lets you operate a vehicle with more than 1 crewmember aboard?

Actually there are some (payware) addons for FS2004 that do have a co-pilot!

But I agree with most here, I do like realism, but as long as it is still fun. Also the difference between realism and reality, as CCIP pointed out allready is very important. I play a game to get out of reality for a moment but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be realistic.
For me I also crank up the realism while playing and getting more comfortable with the game but I doubt I will ever play at 100% or do a patrol without TC, that would be too much like reality!

[kiwi_2005]

Well i just play the damn game! Mods, realism, i mean if ya wanna feel like your doing the real thing then do what that german guy did and built him a uboat... forgot the name of him found his website from a thread here once. He and one or two others built a cut down size VIIC or XXI. And it works!

But to answer the question: I have tried alot of mods and am using SH3 commander at the moment. I prefer to play SH3 without rub, just have the stock game with SH3CDR for my reports and realism up high.

Not all the time i will play campaign in manual.

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by marhkimov

B-17 The Mighty Eighth.

I completely forgot about that beauty, this is totally off-topic, but thanks for reminding me, sub-woofer on, time to give that jewel another run.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by K-61

When realism becomes tedious then it takes away from the enjoyment of the game. In the game's original crew fatigue model I as commander of the boat have to micromanage my crew and put them to bed like the mother of a three year old.

But that's not realism that you're complaining about. No real U-boat commander had to play mother hen with his crew.

There's nothing 'boring' about realism. I'm not sure why some players think there is. Sure, there's a lot of boring things in 'reality', but reality and realism are completely different things. When a simulation game is made, the boring bits are cut out from the very beginning, so when you add realism you're only adding realism to the bits that are already fun, thus making the experience even more fun because it seems more real.

I just don't understand where this idea that 'realism = boring' comes from. In my view, arcade style play is boring because it's not challenging on anything but the most basic reflex level. Realism usually adds to the challenge and inserts some strategy and thought into the process, not to mention the 'cool' factor of knowing that what you're experiencing in a realistic simulation is something closer to what real U-boat commanders experienced.

Cdr Gibs, you should have said "only with my mega cheats" like your 1000 mph torpedos and whatever else you have loaded up