German Navy ExPack1.01 Released Plus Hotfix

[Type941]

@ Orgy - first of all, game makers need modders. Those who sue them are shooting themselves in a foot.

About your tirade - yours, is the first actual flaming post here actually. What serg and myself are a bit amuzed by, is the lack of response to a particular question - "will you give me credit for my work"? Because the answer we go thus far was "I'll just give credit to all, as it's too bothersome to look up who did what". And clearly we are not OK with that since we easily see our work, as part of mod, but not credited properly. If you think that's an attitude problem, I suggest you go get yourself a perspective.

Again, all Gibs had to do was to answer to the previouspolite requests. His answer is not satisfactory thus far, and neither is it respectful of the requests. Requests! So if people stop answering to requests, than indeed why bother with game modding full stop? don't generalise that all this is illegal. Not all mods are illegal, many game makers produce their products in a way that they are mod friendly, releasing SDKs with the games, etc. It's actually encouraged. I can name you a few games from different genres where it's a normal practice.

[oRGy]

Of course its normal practice - well except maybe for Ubi - but what I'm saying is that modders shouldn't invoke legal threats against other forum members when the legal basis for such threats dont exist in reality.

For your skins (which are excellent btw) such a legal basis probably does exist.

I agree you have been reasonably polite here. But there are others, who consistently adopts a sour and insulting tone guaranteed to aggravate someone with a short temper.

As I said before, the best way to resolve these situations is through PM or email, politely. Making snide remarks in public like "Disgusting" or "Oh, so you merely plagiarised serg’s work." just because Gibs is irritated by the tone of some members and hence counter-reacts is counter-productive as hell.

It's easy to be self-righteous and brand others as just evil, as 'community outcasts' or whatever - but it's also stupid, unnecessary, and pointless. It just aggravates whoever you're trying to "teach".

Gibs produced new units - you'd think it would be a good thing. Not here though...

[sergbuto]

Forums are forums. They are created for a discussion of different things and moral issues are not an exception. X1 Software was brought up exactly because of signs of similarity between the moral behind the X1 Software thing and this situation.

How many times one should ask politely for a deserved correction? Is one time should be enough? Or should it be two or maybe five times?

The basis for cooperation is indeed respect which was broken in the very beginning and repeatedly denied.

[chaos]

Why would anyone be afraid of back biting and complaning with respect to credits and author rights after a mod realease which was made from scratch by the releasing person?

OR

Why would anyone be afraid of back biting and complaning with respect to credits and author rights after a mod realease where somebodyelse's work is appropriately credited?

i am not afraid of anything because this mod was made by our team and no outside mods, it's just put me off releasing it to this comunity because of a few people who act childish and argue and spam up forums when a simple PM could suffice.

[oRGy]

Originally Posted by sergbuto

Forums are forums. They are created for a discussion of different things and moral issues are not an exception. X1 Software was brought up exactly because of signs of similarity between the moral behind the X1 Software thing and this situation.

How many times one should ask politely for a deserved correction? Is one time should be enough? Or should it be two or maybe five times?

The basis for cooperation is indeed respect which was broken in the very beginning and repeatedly denied.

Huh? X1 was selling modders work for profit.

Gibs is releasing new units for free.

What a ridiculous comparison!

As far as I can see it - anyone can check the thread for themselves -, the history goes like this:

1) Gibs releases units, but doesn't mention that he used type941's skins
2) type941 immediately tells gibs that he hasn't included credits and that this 'is not cool by me'
3) Gibs apologises, saying:

My apologies hey, Late night and I just plain forgot the readme. But its such a distinct skin that I feel there is no fear that ppl wont know its based on your skin. The reason I choose it should be self eveident, its just plain good.

And that

soon there will be a hotfix with also due credit in the readme. Again my apologies for the oversight.

Where's the "disrespect from the beginning" here?

4) After about a page of fruitful and respectful discussion, you launch in with the comment that

It is increasingly starting to look like you avoid giving appropriate credits when you use somebodyelse´s work unless you are pointed out. The second (grey) skin in the Type36 folder is also made by Type941 but it is not mentioned in readme. In turn, I also think that Type36 is based on multi-skinned version of Type34 from my mod of multi-skinned warships.

That rather snide quote is precisely what caused the furore.

5) Gibs responds that

I was however under the impression it was the standed skins, but as I said, to many mods to keep track of.

Then he suggests that

I think that from now on I'm just gonna use a blank broad statement to say something alone the lines of "To any/all mods that I have expanded on and you know who you are that made them - Thank you" , and not have to bother trying to work out what was bloody what!

Which is an understandable response. I know quite well personally from putting together IuB that it's a head-wrecker trying to keep all the credits and documentation up to date.

What does he get for this? Instant condemnation from again, you that

That is not a good excuse for mis-presenting somebodyelse's work so that ppl would think it was done by you. ... I guess it is a good idea for the X1-Software company so that they can use any mod they wish for their purposes.

Again, you imply malice where there was none, and compare him to X1 software. This gives the go-ahead for JSCones and Avon Lady to issue their waves of condemnation, which further inflames the situation.

Need I go on?

About the best thing I can say about your behaviour is that you no tact.

Also note that you have also sucessfully dissuaded others from releasing units to this community. (Previous poster)

[Beery]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

There's a pattern here.

I think it' worth repeating my original post at the top of this thread:

Hehe, this Cdr Gibs guy is his own worst enemy. Apparently he's a pretty talented modder, but he's managed to alienate a lot of people, and for some reason his mods don't get much word-of-mouth attention. A pity he doesn't want to be part of the wider community. A pity he's not willing to share, because apart from anything else it would gain him more respect. But, as he likes to say, it's no loss. I'm certainly not crying about not being able to use his models in RUb - I wasn't looking for new ship models anyway, and RUb is almost at the end of its development cycle. People will just have to figure out how to install over RUb themselves. One thing's for sure, if it comes down to a decision about which mod to install, RUb or Gibs's ships, I'm pretty sure I know which one people will choose, LOL.

[oRGy]

Uhh, Beery, in case you didn't notice, he retracted that statement a good while back and has allowed unconditional use.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by oRGy

Uhh, Beery, in case you didn't notice, he retracted that statement a good while back and has allowed unconditional use.

I didn't notice. I only caught this thread in the last 24 hours. Unfortunately once you post something, if it gets quoted you don't get to do a full retraction. Anyway, as I said, I'm not looking for new models for RUb at the moment, so Gibs's original wish is respected.

[oRGy]

I propose that in future forum members follow these steps:

If you think that your work is not being credited appropriately

1) Email or use the boards private messaging system and politely request that said person credit you appropriately in an updated version.

2) If this fails (wait a day or two), you can bring up the matter in a forum thread. Respectfully request that they credit you appropriately.

3) As a last resort, you can publicly state that you will not grant permission for them to use your work if they do not credit you. Be firm but polite.

[The Avon Lady]

That has to be one of the most repugnant posters popularly posted on the Internet by people who should have a bit of consideration.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by oRGy

Yes, it's rather unfortunate that certain forum members tried to bring that up...

Perhaps some consideration needs to be given to the fact that Gibs said it in the first place. Once it's said, it's said. If people like Gibs don't want what they say taken at face value, maybe they should think about that before posting. Retracting it is only okay if ALL affected parties agree. You can't unilaterally retract a statement. It's disingenuous.

It's not like Avon Lady did anything 'wrong' by responding to it.

[Gizzmoe]

Originally Posted by oRGy

Yes, it's rather unfortunate that certain forum members tried to bring that up. Trying to create friction amongst members is in my book dishonourable behaviour. There should be no room for stirring up trouble on these boards.

Gibs has started that whole thing and it wouldn´t have come so far if he had shown some professional behaviour. He has created that friction, not the others! That "Credit Statement" was a joke and I simply cannot understand that you even tried to defend that statement, saying that it was also difficult to track everything in your IUb project. As if his tiny mod is comparable to IUb...

I don´t think it´s very nice that you try to shift the blame!

[Kaleun]

@orgy


..get a life, that poster is totally unacceptable! To mock the less fortunate than yourself, for a minor spat on a forum.

To post such a thing makes you the retarded one! not the people that are unfortunate enough to be born (or develop) conditions/syndromes that leave them less able than the rest of us!

Grow up

Kaleun

[Marhkimov]

Sorry gibbs... I didn't mean to bash or anything. I think I'll just be quiet next time.

[Type941]

I'd say this should be the message of this mess: In short, in future don't be LAZY and include all the work you haven't done in the credit readme. thtats all. It's so simple that indeed it's stupid to actually debate about this.


And about not PMing.

Here's the thing. you do it in forum because this happens to be a very good forum which lacks flame wars, etc, and this is probably the first one (except the X1 thing). But the issue is more important than a PM. Many should read this, so they understand what's considered ok or not by the public, so that, for example, I don't have to send a PM EVERY time that i see something i've done appear without any credit. So it had to be done here, well, it wasn't out of nothing, there was a reason for it. So you can agree to disagree, but to say you are fed up with tracking things down is just laziness.