yay more inflation

[AVGWarhawk]

Everything is up. Attribute it to higher fuel prices to get the product to the stores. Higher prices to run the farm tractors. Higher prices to run the milking machines. It all ends up coming out of our pockets if we want milk and cookies.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Relax, McBee. This is all part of our plan to save the earth. We are using corn to create ethanol fuels that are good for the environment. To do that, we need land that cows used to use. And other livestock and crops. And stuff. Thus far, we have succeeded in creating a gasoline product that is 10% corn-ethanol, and will reduce our carbon emissions by...um...well nothing actually. In fact it has increased our carbon footprint, but it's the thought that counts, right? The water included in the ethanol may damage your engine, but don't sweat it, you can just go buy a new car. Make sure you get one of the new ones that is designed to use ethanol fuel. They won't be any less susceptible to water damage or fuel-efficient than the vehicle you have now, but they are designed to use ethanol fuel.

Also, this green industry is unprofitable, so we're going to need you to contribute some of your income, if you don't mind. It's your choice of course, you can either help us save the planet or go to jail. Thanks in advance for your generosity and environmental consciousness. This is our Earth, after all.

[frau kaleun]

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

Look on the bright side, frau. This rise in bacon prices saves the earth, as well as our precious pigs, which we can then use for bacon. It may not make sense now, but it will all come together perfectly if you will just vote for us. We promise. Honest. Just press that button in the voting booth and you will receive bacon.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Cows can keep their pasture's...

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

EDIT: Nothing new but interesting http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...rst%20Public%2

[les green01]

you guys just got to know where to find them once you find one or two you get some pails and a stool just make sure you are trying to milk the right sex or just find a farm with a single daughter and the only daugther make your move when daddy dies you got the farm

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by les green01

you guys just got to know where to find them once you find one or two you get some pails and a stool just make sure you are trying to milk the right sex or just find a farm with a single daughter and the only daugther make your move when daddy dies you got the farm

Unless daddy catches on, in which case you just bought the farm.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by kraznyi_oktjabr

Cows can keep their pasture's...

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

I'll buy that when the free market makes it feasible and practicable and not a moment before.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

I knew I should have purchased pork belly futures.

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

To do that, we need land that cows used to use.

I know that was tongue in cheek, but the problem with that point of view is that the US government pays farmers to NOT grow corn. They get paid to not do what they're supposed to do. I can go for a Lima bean shortage if it means more farmers are growing corn and dropping our fuel prices.

And yes, the carbon footprint of ethanol vs petroleum is smaller. Just look at the infrastructure for each. Ethanol will be our hold over fuel until something better comes along.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

I know that was tongue in cheek, but the problem with that point of view is that the US government pays farmers to NOT grow corn. They get paid to not do what they're supposed to do. I can go for a Lima bean shortage if it means more farmers are growing corn and dropping our fuel prices.

Excellent analysis, Gargamel. You are mostly correct. The government does, indeed, pay farmers to not grow corn. It also pays them an inflated price for the corn they do grow. It's all part of a subsidy system that is so complex and counterproductive that I cannot begin to understand it. Supposedly it helps farmers, not that it has at all saved them from being dominated by agribusiness, which curiously reaps many of the same subsidies and price controls for some reason.

I could also use an increase in the corn supply and the resultant drop in corn prices, but somehow, that's not what's happening. We have, through state intervention, managed to achieve the impossible. We have increased the production of a product and simultaneously managed to make it more expensive at the same time. And we did it all for our own good and the good of the planet.

And yes, the carbon footprint of ethanol vs petroleum is smaller. Just look at the infrastructure for each. Ethanol will be our hold over fuel until something better comes along.

From whence did you obtain this bizarre supposition? I tried to look it up but I find no credible champions of ethanol, other than the lobbies and some eco-tards. I reserve judgement, but I am curious.

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

From whence did you obtain this bizarre supposition? I tried to look it up but I find no credible champions of ethanol, other than the lobbies and some eco-tards. I reserve judgement, but I am curious.

Ah well it is just that, supposition. But a logical one IMO. The source of corn is green, its a plant, reducing the carbon footprint to start with. then there's a tractor, a few trucks, and some ancillary machines, but that's about it, and the distillery (different than a refinery, a lot less wasteful). Oil needs a rig (many trucks/ships), a refinery (power source, waste gases), shipping (trucks/ships), etc etc. It's amazing to think that oil doesnt burn more fuel than it produces.

Yeah. ethanol is still a CO2 emitting fuel, but we really need to switch to it to preserve the oil supply, so other petroleum products that alternatives have yet to be found (plastic?) can continue on.

Also financially speaking, as A US citizen, I would like to be free of the OPEC countries hold over us. And corn production is one of the few commodities that the US could be the leader in. We have all this open space, might as well use it.

And forget ethanol, what about vegetable oil in diesels? way more fuel efficient to start with!

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

Ah well it is just that, supposition. But a logical one IMO. The source of corn is green, its a plant, reducing the carbon footprint to start with. then there's a tractor, a few trucks, and some ancillary machines, but that's about it, and the distillery (different than a refinery, a lot less wasteful).

A tractor and a few trucks? Some ancillary machines? I take it you're not a farmer.

Alright, I didn't mean any offense by any of that, but it did make me laugh. I can't even blame you for your logic, because it's actually quite logical. However, the reality is quite a bit different.

I takes about 25 pounds of corn to yield one gallon of ethanol fuel. That may not sound like much, but it takes a lot of land to grow 25 pounds of corn, and that ain't corn stocks or corn cobs, it's the actual little yellow seeds that you can buy in bags at the grocery store and eat. I forget exactly how much land it takes but it's about an acre to produce that much corn. That's land that could be used for the much more efficient task of producing stuff people already use and eat. Still not so bad? It gets worse.

Turning that corn into ethanol uses a lot of energy. The distilleries that produce it consume vast amounts of electricity, and that electricity has to come from somewhere. Simply growing the corn has a lot of energy costs and carbon footprint associated with it as well. Corn is a relatively hardy crop, but it still has to be fertilized regularly and dusted for pests, fungi and weeds or it dies en masse. Those fertilizers and whatever-cides aren't cheap or environmentally-friendly to produce, and it takes a great deal of them and the machines to distribute them to sustain the vast cornfields needed to produce the amount of ethanol we require.

But don't take my word for it. Look at what the ethanol craze has accomplished thus far. Our gasoline is only 10% ethanol, despite a surge in corn production since the Energy-whatever Act of 2005, and it didn't lower gas prices, it raised them. It also had the side effect of raising food prices by wasting land that could have been better-used or better-suited to other crops.

And it doesn't even stop there. Corn-ethanol is so inefficient that it requires $17 billion in annual Federal subsidies just to remain viable. That's after the price-hikes. This is not "green" policy, it's Farm lobby policy dressed up as green policy and peddled to pandering politicians who don't know any better.

Oil needs a rig (many trucks/ships), a refinery (power source, waste gases), shipping (trucks/ships), etc etc. It's amazing to think that oil doesnt burn more fuel than it produces.

Well, it actually does burn more fuel than it produces, but it is still comparatively efficient, which is why we use the hell out of it.

Yeah. ethanol is still a CO2 emitting fuel, but we really need to switch to it to preserve the oil supply, so other petroleum products that alternatives have yet to be found (plastic?) can continue on.

Preserve the oil supply? What makes you think we're running out? I know that people say that we're running out all the time, but if that's true, why do the oil companies seem so unconcerned?

I know why. It's because we aren't running out, and they have artificial substitutes. I trust them. They didn't get to be mega-conglomerates and captains of industry just by being short-sighted and greedy, contrary to the general public impression.

Also financially speaking, as A US citizen, I would like to be free of the OPEC countries hold over us. And corn production is one of the few commodities that the US could be the leader in. We have all this open space, might as well use it.

We were the leader in corn production before ethanol came around, but back then we were actually selling it to people and not subsidizing it quite so much. And there is not enough arable land in this nation to produce the ethanol we need or reduce our dependency.

And forget ethanol, what about vegetable oil in diesels? way more fuel efficient to start with!

I don't know enough about that to really opine, but that seems like a good idea. I think Platapus commented on the efficiency of diesel engines somewhere. As best I can tell, and from my own experience with diesel locomotives, they seem like a great thing. But I trust you took notice of how diesel, the sludge of petroleum products, has somehow become more expensive than gasoline, which requires a lot more cracking? The same government and the same lobbyists that pushed this corn-ethanol nonsense on us were also responsible for that. It wasn't speculators or greedy companies, it was a direct measure taken by the same people we trust to lead us and the farmers we all love because farmers are always nice, right?

[nikimcbee]

So I can't blame "big dairy" for price gouging then.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Everything is up. Attribute it to higher fuel prices to get the product to the stores. Higher prices to run the farm tractors. Higher prices to run the milking machines. It all ends up coming out of our pockets if we want milk and cookies.

This.

Watch the price of Diesal in particular.