Graphics card overheating on Aliens vs Predator 3

Weiss Pinguin · 04-07-11, 09:40 AM

Well if the card is rated up to 105°, then you probably won't start to see artifacting or glitches until you start approaching 100°, I'd imagine. 93° is 12° below the max stated temperature, so in theory the card should be okay, but the rest of the computer might not

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

14A? That's not enough. 14*12= 168Watts on the 12v line. The card on its own, according to Nvidia, draws 150W max. That leaves 18W for everything else.

At the very least, that unit will die soon since it's running at 100% all the time. If it's a cheap unit (it is if that Amperage is accurate), it's possible it'll take out everything else along with it. Might even burn down the house.

SORRY I'm taking the thread a little off topic, but this got me thinking... I'm looking at getting a GeForce GT 430 (49W max power according to nVidia, max usage≈85W according to Guru3D), and I'm looking at this 300W power supply, which, if I'm reading the specs right, has 32 amps total on both 12v rails (16 on each). Using your equation, (16*12)+(16*12)=384W on both rails. 384W-85W≈300W left over for everything else. I'm running an HP slimline, stock parts except for upgraded RAM, not sure what the power consumption for all the parts is. nVidia recommends a minimum system power of 300W, but according to the Guru3D review, their according-to-them hefty system maxed out at 242W with the GPU at full load

Just wanted to see what you thought.

/hijack

Arclight · 04-07-11, 10:57 AM

There are huge differences in how PSUs deliver their power. For the earlier example, with 14A on the 12v rail, you only get 168W of the rated 450W.

Now lets look at my previous PSU, a Corsair HX520W. It has 40A on the 12v rail, making 480W of the rated 520 available where it's needed.

My current PSU is a 650W Antec, with 4 12v rails, 2x22A & 2x25A. This PSU is actually capable of delivering it's full, rated 650W on the 12v. (in fact, they could use the same rail system on a 1200W PSU without modifying it)

See the differences? Cheap units simply can't provide the power where you need it. Also, they often lack quality protection, making them more liable to die with a flash and a bang, possibly taking other things along with them.

Anyway, to actually answer your question, normally I'd say 18-20A minimum per rail for any kind of gaming system. But considering the card, it shouldn't give you much trouble.*

One thing to note though, is that you can't exceed the rated Wattage. My current PSU is capable of delivering 1128W on 12v, but the unit is rated for 650W so that's the maximum power it can deliver. It just is extremely unlikely that I'll ever manage to overload any individual rail: that's why they build them with the extra leeway, and that's one of the reasons a good unit is expensive.

*Ah, and that brings me to another point: a lot of multi-rail designs use 1 or more rails for the graphics card(s), while loading everything else on the rail(s) that is left. Have a look at this table: http://www.pcpower.com/technology/power_usage/

So, lets assume 30W for the hard drive, 50W for the board, another 30W for the RAM (2 modules), 80W for the CPU and another 10W for 3 fans. That makes 200W needed on 1 rail, still assuming the graphics card has it own rail and ignoring optical drives, additional hard drives, fans or memory modules.

With that example, that PSU you suggested would fall short. Granted, we're talking peak usage here: the PC should only actually draw that much power when every component works at 100% capacity, which technically never happens. But you really want to be prepared in case it does happen. Also, capacitors age: a PSU will lose power over time. Lastly, a PSU loses efficiency and can start to deliver less stable voltages if you push it to its maximum capacity. Personally I wouldn't advise loading a PSU beyond 80% of its capacity. (that's why people buy big units: keeping the relative load low extends the lifetime of the unit and avoids any issues with unstable voltages due to high loads. No one actually needs 1000-1200W units)

(that is assuming a fairly hefty setup by the way: a fast quad-core, a motherboard with ample features, fast hard drive, etc. Considering it's a slimline tower, power draw would likely fall quite a bit lower than the listings in that table)

edit: I'm only seeing 13A per rail on the unit you linked to.

Loud_Silence · 04-07-11, 11:06 AM

Alright, you made me open my case. Are you happy now?

My PSU has two 12v circuits. +12v1 is 14A, and +12v2 is 13A. It's still looking so bad?

Arclight · 04-07-11, 11:43 AM

Not bad, but it doesn't have much leeway, if any at all. I'm just... really demanding on what goes in there. Last thing I want is a hard drive or something to fail , or constant inexplicable CTD and BSOD, because the PSU can't quite hack it.

It gets overlooked by a lot of system builders, especially the companies like Dell and such that are more concerned about hitting a specific price point and profit margin than building an actually half-decent machine.

Weiss Pinguin · 04-07-11, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

edit: I'm only seeing 13A per rail on the unit you linked to.

Bugger, that's the second time I've tried to link to that PSU and messed up

Here we go: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-032-_-Product

300-85W still leaves me with 215W to play with. This slimline comes with a 160W PSU, but I'm assuming that's probably the bare minimum needed to run this system during normal operation. And obviously a new graphics card will draw a lot more than the card that's in there. I guess with a 300W power supply I'll be cutting it close when I'm playing a game.

Arclight · 04-07-11, 02:41 PM

Well like I said it's all assuming peak currents and beefy components. Gaming is just rather stressfull on a PC: the card is likely running full tilt, the CPU has a constant, hefty task and there's a lot of RAM in use, with frequent operations to fetch contents. And the motherboard is working hard to keep al that stuff communicating and playing nice. There's not a lot of types of applications that tax a system quite so thoroughly, so at least where gaming is concerned I'm a strong supporter of the "plenty power" aproach.

I can't gaurantee that it'll work or not, chances are that if it ran on 160W, moving to 300 and plugging in that card will see it continue to run happily. If you however at any point are faced with seemingly random CTD or BSOD problems, or failures to boot, the PSU would be my first suspect.

About the overheating: I've had such trouble with a number of console ports. My 8800 would overheat not far above 80C, but it always seemed to be the memory (not artifacting, but simply corrupted image, shortly followed by a lockup). My guess is it's because of texture streaming: it's a technigue where the higher detail mip levels of textures are not pre-cached in VRAM, meaning that when the player aproaches an object and the game tries to load a more detailed texture for it, it would need to come from the disc (likely regular RAM in a PC, consoles don't have the luxury of plenty of memory to work with). This means a lot of work for VRAM, thus more heat and thus more likely to overheat. A lot of cards have a cooling solution that's really only effective in transfering heat away from the actual GPU, not so much the memory chips.

I fixed it by making the fan on the 8800 more aggressive (custom profile made in Rivatuner), and lowering quality settings for the game, particularly texture detail. Think shadows take up a good chunk of rendering work and VRAM as well.

Can't say for sure it's what's plaguing you LS, but it might be something to try.

Weiss Pinguin · 04-07-11, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

I can't gaurantee that it'll work or not, chances are that if it ran on 160W, moving to 300 and plugging in that card will see it continue to run happily. If you however at any point are faced with seemingly random CTD or BSOD problems, or failures to boot, the PSU would be my first suspect.

Yeah, I'll be keeping a close eye on things if/when I get the parts together. Thanks for the input. Okay, now I'll stop

kiwi_2005 · 04-09-11, 11:03 AM

Aliens V Predator 3 dont worry, the game is to short and there is nothing to do once your finished up all the 3 campaigns apart from multiplayer which is pretty much dummed down compared to AVP 2 multiplayer was a blast to play. Never had a heating problem playing this game and I know when my card - 9800GT is working overtime the fans start revving up becomes quite loud that it sounds like a jet engine. Only games that make the card work overtime is Silent Hunter 5 & Crysis atm.

Loud_Silence · 04-09-11, 11:05 AM

This thread is going down big time.

Anyway, the problem is solved. I installed nvidia tools and made a new profile so the fan now goes faster at a lower temperature than before.

04-07-11, 10:57 AM	#2
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	There are huge differences in how PSUs deliver their power. For the earlier example, with 14A on the 12v rail, you only get 168W of the rated 450W. Now lets look at my previous PSU, a Corsair HX520W. It has 40A on the 12v rail, making 480W of the rated 520 available where it's needed. My current PSU is a 650W Antec, with 4 12v rails, 2x22A & 2x25A. This PSU is actually capable of delivering it's full, rated 650W on the 12v. (in fact, they could use the same rail system on a 1200W PSU without modifying it) See the differences? Cheap units simply can't provide the power where you need it. Also, they often lack quality protection, making them more liable to die with a flash and a bang, possibly taking other things along with them. Anyway, to actually answer your question, normally I'd say 18-20A minimum per rail for any kind of gaming system. But considering the card, it shouldn't give you much trouble.* One thing to note though, is that you can't exceed the rated Wattage. My current PSU is capable of delivering 1128W on 12v, but the unit is rated for 650W so that's the maximum power it can deliver. It just is extremely unlikely that I'll ever manage to overload any individual rail: that's why they build them with the extra leeway, and that's one of the reasons a good unit is expensive. Ah, and that brings me to another point: a lot of multi-rail designs use 1 or more rails for the graphics card(s), while loading everything else on the rail(s) that is left. Have a look at this table: http://www.pcpower.com/technology/power_usage/ So, lets assume 30W for the hard drive, 50W for the board, another 30W for the RAM (2 modules), 80W for the CPU and another 10W for 3 fans. That makes 200W needed on 1 rail, still assuming the graphics card has it own rail and ignoring optical drives, additional hard drives, fans or memory modules. With that example, that PSU you suggested would fall short. Granted, we're talking peak usage here: the PC should only actually draw that much power when every component works at 100% capacity, which technically never happens. But you really want to be prepared in case it does happen. Also, capacitors age: a PSU will lose power over time. Lastly, a PSU loses efficiency and can start to deliver less stable voltages if you push it to its maximum capacity. Personally I wouldn't advise loading a PSU beyond 80% of its capacity. (that's why people buy big units: keeping the relative load low extends the lifetime of the unit and avoids any issues with unstable voltages due to high loads. No one actually needs* 1000-1200W units) (that is assuming a fairly hefty setup by the way: a fast quad-core, a motherboard with ample features, fast hard drive, etc. Considering it's a slimline tower, power draw would likely fall quite a bit lower than the listings in that table) edit: I'm only seeing 13A per rail on the unit you linked to. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia. Last edited by Arclight; 04-07-11 at 11:14 AM.

04-07-11, 11:43 AM	#4
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Not bad, but it doesn't have much leeway, if any at all. I'm just... really demanding on what goes in there. Last thing I want is a hard drive or something to fail , or constant inexplicable CTD and BSOD, because the PSU can't quite hack it. It gets overlooked by a lot of system builders, especially the companies like Dell and such that are more concerned about hitting a specific price point and profit margin than building an actually half-decent machine. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

04-07-11, 02:41 PM	#6
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Well like I said it's all assuming peak currents and beefy components. Gaming is just rather stressfull on a PC: the card is likely running full tilt, the CPU has a constant, hefty task and there's a lot of RAM in use, with frequent operations to fetch contents. And the motherboard is working hard to keep al that stuff communicating and playing nice. There's not a lot of types of applications that tax a system quite so thoroughly, so at least where gaming is concerned I'm a strong supporter of the "plenty power" aproach. I can't gaurantee that it'll work or not, chances are that if it ran on 160W, moving to 300 and plugging in that card will see it continue to run happily. If you however at any point are faced with seemingly random CTD or BSOD problems, or failures to boot, the PSU would be my first suspect. About the overheating: I've had such trouble with a number of console ports. My 8800 would overheat not far above 80C, but it always seemed to be the memory (not artifacting, but simply corrupted image, shortly followed by a lockup). My guess is it's because of texture streaming: it's a technigue where the higher detail mip levels of textures are not pre-cached in VRAM, meaning that when the player aproaches an object and the game tries to load a more detailed texture for it, it would need to come from the disc (likely regular RAM in a PC, consoles don't have the luxury of plenty of memory to work with). This means a lot of work for VRAM, thus more heat and thus more likely to overheat. A lot of cards have a cooling solution that's really only effective in transfering heat away from the actual GPU, not so much the memory chips. I fixed it by making the fan on the 8800 more aggressive (custom profile made in Rivatuner), and lowering quality settings for the game, particularly texture detail. Think shadows take up a good chunk of rendering work and VRAM as well. Can't say for sure it's what's plaguing you LS, but it might be something to try. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

04-09-11, 11:03 AM	#8
kiwi_2005 Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2004 Location: Aeoteroa Posts: 7,382 Downloads: 223 Uploads: 1	Aliens V Predator 3 dont worry, the game is to short and there is nothing to do once your finished up all the 3 campaigns apart from multiplayer which is pretty much dummed down compared to AVP 2 multiplayer was a blast to play. Never had a heating problem playing this game and I know when my card - 9800GT is working overtime the fans start revving up becomes quite loud that it sounds like a jet engine. Only games that make the card work overtime is Silent Hunter 5 & Crysis atm. __________________ RIP kiwi_2005 Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others.

04-07-11, 11:06 AM	#3
Loud_Silence Planesman Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 193 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Alright, you made me open my case. Are you happy now? My PSU has two 12v circuits. +12v1 is 14A, and +12v2 is 13A. It's still looking so bad?

04-09-11, 11:05 AM	#9
Loud_Silence Planesman Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 193 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	This thread is going down big time. Anyway, the problem is solved. I installed nvidia tools and made a new profile so the fan now goes faster at a lower temperature than before.