Massachusetts paraplegic charged, attempting citizen's arrest on alleged molester

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

No one would argue with that, the only problem is that some people think he either didn't do anything wrong legally or that the laws should be completely ignored.


As for that, he has apparently put his hands up to the original child molestation charges and is now facing some new allegations over a different child.
That is why I called him a nonce instead of an alledged nonce(unless of course if at a later date his admittance of the offences is shown to be false in which case I will just call him an alledged nonce)

Aye that......nonce it is then.

We have a different term that I couldn't post here.

[NeonSamurai]

Frankly I also side with Platapus on this. The man acted inappropriately, and frankly I think with calculation in that he planned things to go down that way. Pointing a baseball bat at someone in that situation is definitely a threatening action, and a baseball bat is a dangerous/lethal weapon (as would be many other sporting items like a hockey stick, croquet mallet, etc).

As for the supposed crime, I would be very careful with this case. The crime is an awful thing, but it happens far too often that the allegations are false. Without direct physical evidence, I am very reluctant to believe what the child says for a huge host of reasons having to do with cognitive development and capabilities of a child that age (bluntly the child's testimony is utterly unreliable). As such unless there is physical evidence of sexual assault, it is entirely possible that the man is innocent.

Keep in mind that child molestation / sexual assault is one of the worst things you can be accused of. Even if you are proven innocent, even if there is no evidence what so ever and you are never charged, your life is ruined as almost everyone will still believe you are guilty. You all here are doing it right now. It is also nigh impossible to get a fair trial on such cases. Plus accusations of child molestation / sexual assault have frequently been used by one parent to discredit the other (often leading to, or during divorce procedures). I can point to several cases where it is blatantly clear that the molestation did not happen and that the child(ren) was making the story up (often thanks to the parents implanting it, intentionally or not), and yet the accused lives were still trashed.

So, frankly I hope they do prosecute the paraplegic (and if this was premeditated like I suspect, I hope they throw the book at him). As for the accused, I hope he gets a fair trial as he may well be innocent. If he isn't then the prison system will get him.

<edit> of course if he confessed, odds are he is guilty.

[jumpy]

This is why I could never be a solicitor... also why I hold the opinion that there's a special place in hell for most of them.

You can argue the technicalities all you like, but I find a heavily disabled, wheelchair bound man to constitute very little physical threat to anyone. Bat or no. Give him a firearm on the other hand...

Lets hope the prosecution levies the correct attention to the real crime here. And just so we're clear, it's the paedophile. It's not vigilante justice, otherwise the fiddler would have been given a pasting proper like, nor would the police have been contacted to arrest the guy in the first place.

What would you do to prevent a suspected gary from escaping arrest, knowing the police were on their way, when it involved a family member? If you had any decency, you'd do what was right regardless of the cost to you. Had wheelchair man wanted to do the other chap real harm there's much more he could have done than attempt to level the playing field of his disability with a baseball bat.

[Gargamel]

@FF:

Making any type of threatening gesture, ie pointing a bat a somebody, is considered Assault. It's quite often a felony.

Actually making contact with a person is battery. That too is often a felony.

So just making any action that appears threatening to a person is Assault.

We got this drilled into our heads as EMT's. If we do not have consent from our patients to touch, or even approach them, we could get charged.

Him forcing the man to stay in that chair would be unlawful restraint, or even kidnapping. It's another topic we went over ad naseum.

[August]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

Him forcing the man to stay in that chair would be unlawful restraint, or even kidnapping.

There is no way that a severely disabled person can force a fit 27 year old to stay in a chair.

There is no way that a severely disabled person can force a fit 27 year old to stay in a chair.

Perhaps he can with a threat of violence...oh yeah thats the threatening behavior offence isn't it which comes before the assault offence

[August]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

@FF:

Making any type of threatening gesture, ie pointing a bat a somebody, is considered Assault.

Not quite. There also has to be a reaonable ability to cause harm. I would argue that it will be awful difficult to prove against a severely disabled paraplegic bat or no.

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by August

There is no way that a severely disabled person can force a fit 27 year old to stay in a chair.

Gun? baseball bat at close range? Deadman switch? Anyways, it's the attempt, not the result.

Originally Posted by August

Not quite. There also has to be a reaonable ability to cause harm. I would argue that it will be awful difficult to prove against a severely disabled paraplegic bat or no.

No, my just acting like I'm going to make unwanted contact is assault. Making contact is battery.

My simply laying a hand on your shoulder could be construed as battery. I've had a colleague go to court over that very thing. Eventually they dropped the criminal trial when the EMS system decided to settle the civil end out of court.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by jumpy

This is why I could never be a solicitor... also why I hold the opinion that there's a special place in hell for most of them.

You can argue the technicalities all you like, but I find a heavily disabled, wheelchair bound man to constitute very little physical threat to anyone. Bat or no. Give him a firearm on the other hand...

Clearly the disabled guy thought a baseball bat was an appropriate weapon as he pre-meditatively carried one. I think a baseball bat in anyone's hands no matter how young or old or able or disabled can be a dangerious weapon, especially when it is used as such.

Well, the key is to not look at this issue from an emotional viewpoint. That is what Lawyers and Judges have to do. It is very easy to get swayed by the emotional aspects of this case, especially when the emotions involved agree with you.

On an emotional level we have this cripple smacking the crap out of a child molester. On an emotional level this is very gratifying.

On a logical level we have a person setting up another person and smacking the crap out of them because the first person *thinks* they are a child molester.

That is not what the Citizens' Arrest laws were written for.

Was this truly a case of assisting justice or was it a case of vigilante revenge?

The actual facts and evidence will come out in court where they will, hopefully, be examined not from an emotional viewpoint but from a logical viewpoint.

The actual facts and evidence will come out in court where they will, hopefully, be examined not from an emotional viewpoint but from a logical viewpoint.

From a logical viewpoint was there any requirement for the man to be involved at all?

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

From a logical viewpoint was there any requirement for the man to be involved at all?

Aside from reporting it? No.

Aside from reporting it? No.

He didn't even do that though, his partners daughter made the report to the police about her husband on the mainland.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by jumpy

You can argue the technicalities all you like, but I find a heavily disabled, wheelchair bound man to constitute very little physical threat to anyone. Bat or no.

Finally, someone sees the light.

What would you do to prevent a suspected gary from escaping arrest, knowing the police were on their way, when it involved a family member? If you had any decency, you'd do what was right regardless of the cost to you. Had wheelchair man wanted to do the other chap real harm there's much more he could have done than attempt to level the playing field of his disability with a baseball bat.

And again, Amen brother!
People should realise that emotions did get in the way, yes we don't deny that, and that this case is what it is.
A man, emotionally involved, for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by Platapus

Clearly the disabled guy thought a baseball bat was an appropriate weapon as he pre-meditatively carried one.

Appropriate? Hard to say really. That's probably all he had to have with him.

I think a baseball bat in anyone's hands no matter how young or old or able or disabled can be a dangerious weapon, especially when it is used as such.

Really? Wow! There must be a lot of pansies out there in this big beautiful world of ours then.
And gun crimes should be down too then in that case.
Why is it that we always fall back on this arguement that a baseball bat is a threatening weapon?
Do we really have to derail this thread and start defining what is considered a threatening weapon? And how a object becomes threatening? And how an object must be made up of and held and wielded or cocked and loaded or held in the 2 hands and swung at full force by an able-bodied man who weighs 300 lbs?

Well, the key is to not look at this issue from an emotional viewpoint. That is what Lawyers and Judges have to do. It is very easy to get swayed by the emotional aspects of this case, especially when the emotions involved agree with you.

Well i do agree with you there.
It just shows that there are human beings out there with feelings and morals and emotions that get the better of them in situations like that. Does that make us weak? Does that make us criminals?

On an emotional level we have this cripple smacking the crap out of a child molester. On an emotional level this is very gratifying.

Hell yea, i'd do the same thing.
And i ask again, is this 27-year old a girl?
A right royal pansie! That should never have been a threatening situation for this clown. I take a guess that the clown thought to himself ill milk this one for all it's worth! What's the bet?

On a logical level we have a person setting up another person and smacking the crap out of them because the first person *thinks* they are a child molester.

Yes, it certainly is easy to sit back here, all of us, including me and judge the situation from afar.
Logic, would not be the first action i would undertake in a situation like that either.
And the point about him not knowing the facts, i have to agree with you, but surely there is more to this story than what is told.
More reports of the abuse, marks, etc on body of child etc etc.

The actual facts and evidence will come out in court where they will, hopefully, be examined not from an emotional viewpoint but from a logical viewpoint.

Ofc they will, that's one reason why the guy in the wheel chair is going to court.
Oh, and 2 other reasons ofc too, one: the clown that pressed charges, because he couldn't defend himself from a guy in a wheel chair () and two: the prosecution who i'm sure informed the clown that one: this would be beneficial to your case and two: let's make some money!

I think at the end of the day we are all going to go around in circles with this case.

[Aramike]

Much over-complication being done here, I think. Surely it is interesting, but its a mere elementary exercise.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the man was wrong when using force in an attempt to restrain the alleged molestor. That being said, I can empathise completely with what he did. In fact, should I ever be in a similar situation, the molester better hope I'm in a wheelchair or I'd do far worse than strike him with a bat.

I believe this man will get off with what amounts to a slap on the wrist. Vigilantism is wrong, but in many cases laws against such behavior seem to exist to discourage such actions, not to punish those in fairly extreme circumstances or those who are merely "wired" that way.

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Why is it that we always fall back on this arguement that a baseball bat is a threatening weapon?

Have you ever, first hand, had to pick up the pieces of someones skull that has been shattered by a baseball bat?

I have.

I'd call it a threatening weapon when wielded as such.