Ever destroy a ship with all hands?

[Captain Nemo]

Originally Posted by desirableroasted

It is totally, absurdly random.

1) Merchant explodes like New Year's Eve with just an impact badly aimed. Cargo: lumber. 75 of 77 crew survive.

2) Passenger/cargo. Takes 3 days to go down after two torpedoes and finishing deck guns. Cargo: mail. 3 survivors.

Yeah. 'nother rum, Bertha.

I agree with 1) but not so sure of 2). Shouldn't the location of the sinking be taken into account? If you sunk the passenger/cargo in the mid-Atlantic many miles from the nearest land, then the chances of survival would be reduced. Also the lifeboats may have been damaged forcing survivors into the sea also reducing survivability. There are many factors such as the state of emergency provisions in the lifeboats or lack of water that can influence the number that actually survive a sinking, even if they actually got off the ship in one piece.

Nemo

[Jimbuna]

Old game engine I'm afraid....randomisation can be good in one instance then not so good in another.

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo

I agree with 1) but not so sure of 2). Shouldn't the location of the sinking be taken into account? If you sunk the passenger/cargo in the mid-Atlantic many miles from the nearest land, then the chances of survival would be reduced. Also the lifeboats may have been damaged forcing survivors into the sea also reducing survivability. There are many factors such as the state of emergency provisions in the lifeboats or lack of water that can influence the number that actually survive a sinking, even if they actually got off the ship in one piece.

Nemo

Definitely true. If you were sunk in the Western Approaches you were very likely to get picked up due to frequent Allied patrols. On the other hand, getting sunk outside of the major shipping lanes was often a death sentence. Regardless of how much time you had to abandon ship.

The average medium-sized merchant or tanker had a crew of between 35 and 60. The average fatality rate for ships lost on the North Atlantic was about 9 men killed per ship lost. As a rough estimate, most sinkings fell into predictable categories:

No casualties (Slow sinking, buoyant cargo, nearby rescue vessels, etc)
1-5 casualties (Usually a few men in the engine room or near the impact point killed)
50%-75% casualties (Fast sinking, bad weather, hazardous cargo, many days adrift, etc)
100% casualties (Ammo, fuel, iron ore, & other very dangerous cargoes, midocean sinkings, etc)

While researching this feature with JSCones I asked if it would be possible to factor in these casualty trends but unfortunately it was not. I understand; all in all, SH3Commander has many amazing (and much more important) features.

If there is enough interest and I get permission, I could fiddle with the program and try to replace numerical casualties with percentages...

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

If there is enough interest and I get permission, I could fiddle with the program and try to replace numerical casualties with percentages...

I don't thik that would be a need, but I think what would be doable would be to compare the sinking location, your casualty groups, weather (via date, ie winter, summer, etc) and cargo.

A frieghter with lumber sinking in AM5x in June would have a much higher survival rate than a warship getting sunk in AL7x in winter.

[Mouftic]

Yeah, and normally frigates would have a high death rate because of the size of the ship containaing so much explosives, and even worst if the ship sank and the depth charges were not set to safe mode.

But definately some area were worst than other. Would'nt have not liked being sunk in the North Atlantic during winter time. But I guess in the middle pacific would be better if some ships were around.

I had a small taste of isolation when we were where performing a boarding in the Pacific and the Zodiac's engine broke. The ships kept going in front of us until we lost visual contact and we were in rough seas. It's kind of a sucky feeling to say the least. Could not imagine doing it in a wooden boat in the middle of winter in the North Atlantic.

[Missing Name]

I did get a destroyer with all hands in New York. However, it was rather calm weather. The destroyer sank after 20 minutes, with a shot that clipped off the bow.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Mouftic

Yeah, and normally frigates would have a high death rate because of the size of the ship containaing so much explosives,

Nope. Small-calibre ammunition was in one-piece casings, and it was very hard to generate enough heat to make them cook off. Even a magazine hit on a destroyer, frigate or corvette was unlikely to make any massive explosion. Battleships were prone to this sort of thing because the powder was all bagged, and would tend to go off with one big boom.

and even worst if the ship sank and the depth charges were not set to safe mode.

Unless the ship was sunk while making a depth charge attack, the charges wouldn't be primed. No depth setting, no boom.

[Missing Name]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Unless the ship was sunk while making a depth charge attack, the charges wouldn't be primed. No depth setting, no boom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Hammann_%28DD-412%29

The USS Hammann was torpedoed during the Battle of Midway while attempting salvage work on the USS Yorktown. The depth charges detonated as the ship sank below the preset depth.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Missing Name

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Hammann_%28DD-412%29

The USS Hammann was torpedoed during the Battle of Midway while attempting salvage work on the USS Yorktown. The depth charges detonated as the ship sank below the preset depth.

If you had followed the reference link to the original source http://destroyerhistory.org/goldplat...1200&pid=41210 , you would have seen that the quote "from the destroyer's depth charges and torpedoes going off" isn't there, which means that the Wiki article author was guessing. Also you're guessing, as even the Wiki article doesn't contain your phrase "preset depth".

On the other hand, the Captain's and Gunnery Officer's official reports http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/wwii/mid9.htm does raise the possibility of a faulty depth charge or torpedo, but also insists that all depth charges were set to 'safe'.

[Mouftic]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Nope. Small-calibre ammunition was in one-piece casings, and it was very hard to generate enough heat to make them cook off. Even a magazine hit on a destroyer, frigate or corvette was unlikely to make any massive explosion.

"At 0201 hours on 23 September 1943 the German submarine U-666 fired a Gnat torpedo, which hit HMS Itchen (Cdr. Clement Edward Bridgman, DSO, RNR) after 1 minute and 10 seconds. The frigate blew up after the hit in position 53º25'N, 39º42'W. Debris from the vessel was later found on the conning tower of the U-boat and on HMCS Morden."

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/100.html

"HMCS Athabaskan (Lt.Cdr. John Hamilton Stubbs, DSO, DSC, RCN) was sunk in the English Channel north-east of Ouessant by two torpedoes from the German torpedo boats T-24 and T-27. The magazine and a boiler blew up in an explosion that was seen 20 miles away."

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/4440.html

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Unless the ship was sunk while making a depth charge attack, the charges wouldn't be primed. No depth setting, no boom.

"AB T.D.H. Malone had set the depth charges to “safe” before the ship was struck and this action undoubtedly saved many lives. But he himself was not one of the survivors. Malone received no official recognition for doing his duty but he is remembered with gratitude by those who were rescued. In other rapid sinkings many Canadian sailors were lost while they were in the water, through the explosion of depth charges of foundering ships."

http://www.magma.ca/~leprecha/casualty_invasion.htm


Also from reading many books, I have observed that remark.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Mouftic

"At 0201 hours on 23 September 1943 the German submarine U-666 fired a Gnat torpedo, which hit HMS Itchen (Cdr. Clement Edward Bridgman, DSO, RNR) after 1 minute and 10 seconds. The frigate blew up after the hit in position 53º25'N, 39º42'W. Debris from the vessel was later found on the conning tower of the U-boat and on HMCS Morden."

I said "difficult", not "impossible". My initial response was to you using the word "normally" in quoting a high death rate. Do you have a record of the number of frigates exploding vs. those not exploding due to ammunition?

"HMCS Athabaskan (Lt.Cdr. John Hamilton Stubbs, DSO, DSC, RCN) was sunk in the English Channel north-east of Ouessant by two torpedoes from the German torpedo boats T-24 and T-27. The magazine and a boiler blew up in an explosion that was seen 20 miles away."

http://www.uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/4440.html

Again, I didn't say it couldn't, or didn't, happen. You said it was a normal thing. It's not. By-and-large torpedoed frigates did not suffer secondary explosions.

"AB T.D.H. Malone had set the depth charges to “safe” before the ship was struck and this action undoubtedly saved many lives.

Which says the depth charges did not explode.

[VONHARRIS]

Originally Posted by Mouftic

But definately some area were worst than other. Would'nt have not liked being sunk in the North Atlantic during winter time. But I guess in the middle pacific would be better if some ships were around.
.

What about the sharks in the Pacific? Their numbers and kinds are many more in the Pacific than the Atlantic.
If I am not mistaken it is very rare to find a Great White in the Atlantic.

[Mouftic]

Originally Posted by VONHARRIS

What about the sharks in the Pacific? Their numbers and kinds are many more in the Pacific than the Atlantic.
If I am not mistaken it is very rare to find a Great White in the Atlantic.

How many people can be eaten by a shark, one, maybe 2 if it's really hungry. I know it did happen. But that was not common and you dont find Great whites in groups unless it's mating season.

Sharks and poisonous snakes are more of a psychological factor more than anyting else.

We had the same 'fear' in the Persian gulf with those poisonous eels. But the truth is casualties are very low and you have to be 'unlucky' to get biten by one because they have small mouths and can't get a bite unless it's your fingers. We were told to make a fist and roll into a ball if they were around.

But hypothermia within 5 to 10 mins in the atlantic, now that was common and no one was spared.

[desirableroasted]

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

While researching this feature with JSCones I asked if it would be possible to factor in these casualty trends but unfortunately it was not. I understand; all in all, SH3Commander has many amazing (and much more important) features.

If there is enough interest and I get permission, I could fiddle with the program and try to replace numerical casualties with percentages...

Probably not worth tinkering with a very, very good Mod.

I think at best you would end up with (typical crew for ship type) * (multiplier based on location, cargo, sea state) = crew loss. Since SH3 Commander randomizes the cargo and cannot know the sea state at the time of sinking, you'd just be adding a another layer of randomization.

That might "smooth" the results out some, but it is all eye candy in the end -- all generated post-patrol. I do chuckle a little when I learn that a merchant that exploded so spectacularly was only carrying mail, but by the next patrol, I cannot remember which one it was.