Did Britain try to assassinate Lenin?

tater · 03-20-11, 08:45 AM

Might've saved the lives of ~60 million future Soviets, too (30M if you prefer lowball estimates of Soviet democide).

Freiwillige · 03-20-11, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Might've saved the lives of ~60 million future Soviets, too (30M if you prefer lowball estimates of Soviet democide).

Possibly more if you look at how that could have changed WWII and Germany's view of the Bolsheviks.

But again on could argue the opposite as well I guess.

Betonov · 03-20-11, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

Possibly more if you look at how that could have changed WWII and Germany's view of the Bolsheviks.

But again on could argue the opposite as well I guess.

Russia would have been invaded anyway if Hitler was in power. Lebensraum and all that jazz. But maybe the Russians would have put up a better defence, since no purges would have been made and there would be more better armed soldiers.... but then again, maybe Russia would have fallen to the third reich without the iron will of Stalin

STEED · 03-20-11, 11:19 AM

If the Whites and Greens along with the Blacks and Western powers united as one the the Reds may have been stopped cold.

nikimcbee · 03-20-11, 11:29 AM

The Mensheviks may have taken over? I don't remember who their leader was. There was that brief window of time when Russia could have been a democracy, but that leader was assasinated (Karensky) I believe. but I need to look that up.

Amagine how history would have bee different, if Russia was a democratic/ capitalist society back then. With all of those natural resources, and an efficient economic model, they could be the big dog in the world today.

There's a great documentary about this same theme, called: "The Russia that we lost."

TLAM Strike · 03-20-11, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

The Mensheviks may have taken over? I don't remember who their leader was. There was that brief window of time when Russia could have been a democracy, but that leader was assasinated (Karensky) I believe. but I need to look that up.

Julius Martov was the leader of the Mensheviks. he died in exile in Germany in 1923. Alexander Kerensky was the leader of the Russian provisional government, he died in exile in the USA in 1970.

03-20-11, 12:52 PM

I really doubt the assassination of Lenin would have made any significant difference to WW1. The timeline in the article is too late, by late summer 1918 the German Army was teetering on the edge of rout in the West. With several million troops still in the Ukraine and Western Russia imposing the Brest-Litovsk treaty provisions, it's unlikely that the fledgling Red Army would have abandoned the fight against the Whites that was just getting into stride. Even a total collapse of the Bolsheviks and replacement by the Whites would not have allowed the new regime to act militarily against Germany before the latter asked for an Armistice from the Allies and American's.

As for the Civil war, by late 1918 Lenin was already ill and there was a certain Georgian revolutionary waiting in the wings to take power. You could probably bet that the removal of Lenin would have opened the door to a struggle between People's Commissar for Defence, Trotsky and Commissar for Nationalities Stalin with his military croney's Voroshilov and Budenny (sp?).

Stalin was more ruthless than Lenin when it came to imposing Party dogma and defence of the Revolution but placed his acquisition and maintenence of power above everything else. It's difficult but not impossible to see the Civil War turning out differently had he been in charge from the start.

It is nice to see though that British foriegn policy is finally getting a warts and all assessment since for too long English language histories have tried to paint it as being shiny clean and totally honourable.

nikimcbee · 03-20-11, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Julius Martov was the leader of the Mensheviks. he died in exile in Germany in 1923. Alexander Kerensky was the leader of the Russian provisional government, he died in exile in the USA in 1970.

I need to dig my history book out. The guy I'm thinking of was the economist that was an advisor to Niki the II. The Tsar saw him as a threat, because he was becoming more popular, and I think he was later killed. His name aludes me at the moment.

ryanglavin · 03-20-11, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov

Russia would have been invaded anyway if Hitler was in power. Lebensraum and all that jazz. But maybe the Russians would have put up a better defence, since no purges would have been made and there would be more better armed soldiers.... but then again, maybe Russia would have fallen to the third reich without the iron will of Stalin

On another note, the Germans would have defeated the Russians if they had arrived as liberators instead of conquerors.

03-20-11, 08:45 AM	#1
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Might've saved the lives of ~60 million future Soviets, too (30M if you prefer lowball estimates of Soviet democide). __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

03-20-11, 11:19 AM	#4
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	If the Whites and Greens along with the Blacks and Western powers united as one the the Reds may have been stopped cold. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

03-20-11, 11:29 AM	#5
nikimcbee Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Patroling the Slot. Posts: 17,952 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	The Mensheviks may have taken over? I don't remember who their leader was. There was that brief window of time when Russia could have been a democracy, but that leader was assasinated (Karensky) I believe. but I need to look that up. Amagine how history would have bee different, if Russia was a democratic/ capitalist society back then. With all of those natural resources, and an efficient economic model, they could be the big dog in the world today. There's a great documentary about this same theme, called: "The Russia that we lost." __________________

03-20-11, 12:52 PM	#7
Randomizer Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I really doubt the assassination of Lenin would have made any significant difference to WW1. The timeline in the article is too late, by late summer 1918 the German Army was teetering on the edge of rout in the West. With several million troops still in the Ukraine and Western Russia imposing the Brest-Litovsk treaty provisions, it's unlikely that the fledgling Red Army would have abandoned the fight against the Whites that was just getting into stride. Even a total collapse of the Bolsheviks and replacement by the Whites would not have allowed the new regime to act militarily against Germany before the latter asked for an Armistice from the Allies and American's. As for the Civil war, by late 1918 Lenin was already ill and there was a certain Georgian revolutionary waiting in the wings to take power. You could probably bet that the removal of Lenin would have opened the door to a struggle between People's Commissar for Defence, Trotsky and Commissar for Nationalities Stalin with his military croney's Voroshilov and Budenny (sp?). Stalin was more ruthless than Lenin when it came to imposing Party dogma and defence of the Revolution but placed his acquisition and maintenence of power above everything else. It's difficult but not impossible to see the Civil War turning out differently had he been in charge from the start. It is nice to see though that British foriegn policy is finally getting a warts and all assessment since for too long English language histories have tried to paint it as being shiny clean and totally honourable.