Libyan No-Fly Zone res. passed by UN

joegrundman · 03-19-11, 01:48 AM

Since it's now goodbye gadaffi, how bad was he really?

Apart from being a bit odd, (which Privateer of all people seems to think is a bad thing!), how bad is he? Massacres? Torture (not that that's a bad thing anymore)? Restriction of travel? Forced collectivization? Please tell me!

And a non-democratic leader like a whole bunch of others in the region that we have no intention of forcing the topple of - eg. kuwait, saudi arabia, all the gulf states, syria (ok we'd topple syria), jordan

And how popular was the rebellion - i man this rebellion wasn't a bunch of flower wavers was it? they had weapons, inc. heavy weapons and at least 1 plane. But not the majority of the weapons, so most of the military remained loyal. The rebels also took a few towns, but most towns remained loyal.

Well, I don't care all that much about Libya, but really, the West, and the UN has been meddling too much in the affairs of that region. If you want the region to grow up, you have to let them do it themselves, or else we are continuing in the whole infantilizing-of-the-muslim-world-micro-managing-nation-building that has stood us so well in the last 10 years

But of course it makes no difference. Cameron has to prove he's as tough as Blair. It's domestic politics by other means! I just hope it all goes according to plan and it's over in time for the summer holidays, and Libya turns smoothly into a happy, lawful and democratic country and Cameron gets to enjoy his frisson

03-19-11, 04:28 AM

Quote:

One Country We saved what? 2 Times?

Is that the country you owe your countries existance to or was it any one of the other countries that did the same?
If you want to rake up the past thats fine, your nation has past debts too so pay up.

Quote:

So it's a Nation. Does that excuse them?

A nation is a nation, they can do what they like and don't have to bow like a servant at your whim.

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You know, I was all ready to join the Foreign Legion after my time in the 82nd.
That no fly crap stopped me.

Really?????

Quote:

So I went Mercenary for a few years

Hey Daffy has been hiring , are you after a job ? dictators are always interested in hired guns. what's your price for a killing?
Can you explain in simple terms why hired killers who are in it just for the cash and thrill get such a bad reputation? it really is beyond my ken how anyone could think badly of hired guns.

Quote:

And maybe he did fund stuff a bit since we bombed him.

Ah the real point.

.
No maybe about it, he did. That is why your point was untrue in the first place. All that gung ho flag waving nonsense might be OK if it had been based on truth, but it wasn't was it.

Quote:

Even our so called Allies in that area are still makeing us talk like Dolphins.

I see the problem there.
You want lap-dogs not allies.

03-19-11, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joegrundman

Since it's now goodbye gadaffi, how bad was he really?................

That is one fine post, it covers nearly every angle and is firmly fixed in rerality.

MH · 03-19-11, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joegrundman

Since it's now goodbye gadaffi, how bad was he really?

Qaddafi was Da Man for most Arabs for the foxy atitude toward west.

He is leader of Bedouin tribes and has grown up in one so his rulling style is as such.
He is not much diffrent from many African and ME leaders.
This no fly zone crap to help Lybian peaple is simply populistic bull.
After qaddafi there will be just another Qadaffi.

TorpX · 03-19-11, 05:47 AM

Does anybody know what is happening inside Libya? I've heard very little about this lately.

joegrundman · 03-19-11, 05:56 AM

but it's not just a no fly zone. I thought at first it was, hence my earlier position that this was a negotiation.

But the resolution also calls for an end to any further advance on rebel positions.

In short the resolution is creating a new micro-state out of those Libyan towns currently held by rebels.

Since this outcome is essentially pointless, and certainly not part of any clear thinking, the conclusion is that it is not intended to be accepted and is a precursor to the removal of gaddaffi in order to restore the libyan state.

if he really is wily, he'll accept the new micro state and enjoy watching the huge amount of treasure being spent by the UN to protect something pointless and think about what to do with his oil concessions

if you remember the oil concessions for Al Megrahi exchange with Britain, Britain has now thrown away it's side of the bargain, while Libya already has Megrahi back. He can now renegotiate the oil business with whoever he wants.

But there is a good chance that the nutty old chess player will make a foolish decision as a result of the external pressure, and get himself killed.

Skybird · 03-19-11, 06:14 AM

After the UN resolution calling for a halt, and after the declared cease-fire, Gaddafi-loyal troops advanced further and now have entered Benghazi.

Reaction by the European forces: none.

Bakkels · 03-19-11, 08:20 AM

A former minister of foreign affairs here made a comment about that yesterday evening: they are actually waiting until Ghadaffi enters Benghazi, or is at it's doorstep. That way they have a legitimate humanitarian reason to intervene, which makes it harder for anyone to criticize them afterwards. Kinda made sense I thought.

Rockstar · 03-19-11, 08:34 AM

Lack of action on the wests part is simply saying yes to Cadaffy in case he wins. At the same time the sabre rattling is simply a show to the anti-Qwadufy forces that we support them too just in case they win.

Nobody gives a rats arse if Gedffiy wins or the anti-Kadwafy forces win. Everyone is scrambling around jockying for a favorable position to whomever the winner may be.

Skybird · 03-19-11, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakkels

A former minister of foreign affairs here made a comment about that yesterday evening: they are actually waiting until Ghadaffi enters Benghazi, or is at it's doorstep. That way they have a legitimate humanitarian reason to intervene, which makes it harder for anyone to criticize them afterwards. Kinda made sense I thought.

Make sense?

Attacking enemies inside a city is more difficult, and bears greater risk of collateral damage. Also, house-to-house combt is a nasty affair - hostiles having entered the city could hold out long there, even if their supplies lines outside the city get interrupted by air raids.

To call this a situation that makes sense again means that political reality-distortion is undermining military reason.

joegrundman · 03-19-11, 06:10 AM

Plane been shot down in Benghazi

looks like it was the rebel plane, and may even have been friendly fire that did it

03-19-11, 01:48 AM	#1
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	Since it's now goodbye gadaffi, how bad was he really? Apart from being a bit odd, (which Privateer of all people seems to think is a bad thing!), how bad is he? Massacres? Torture (not that that's a bad thing anymore)? Restriction of travel? Forced collectivization? Please tell me! And a non-democratic leader like a whole bunch of others in the region that we have no intention of forcing the topple of - eg. kuwait, saudi arabia, all the gulf states, syria (ok we'd topple syria), jordan And how popular was the rebellion - i man this rebellion wasn't a bunch of flower wavers was it? they had weapons, inc. heavy weapons and at least 1 plane. But not the majority of the weapons, so most of the military remained loyal. The rebels also took a few towns, but most towns remained loyal. Well, I don't care all that much about Libya, but really, the West, and the UN has been meddling too much in the affairs of that region. If you want the region to grow up, you have to let them do it themselves, or else we are continuing in the whole infantilizing-of-the-muslim-world-micro-managing-nation-building that has stood us so well in the last 10 years But of course it makes no difference. Cameron has to prove he's as tough as Blair. It's domestic politics by other means! I just hope it all goes according to plan and it's over in time for the summer holidays, and Libya turns smoothly into a happy, lawful and democratic country and Cameron gets to enjoy his frisson __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

03-19-11, 05:56 AM	#6
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	but it's not just a no fly zone. I thought at first it was, hence my earlier position that this was a negotiation. But the resolution also calls for an end to any further advance on rebel positions. In short the resolution is creating a new micro-state out of those Libyan towns currently held by rebels. Since this outcome is essentially pointless, and certainly not part of any clear thinking, the conclusion is that it is not intended to be accepted and is a precursor to the removal of gaddaffi in order to restore the libyan state. if he really is wily, he'll accept the new micro state and enjoy watching the huge amount of treasure being spent by the UN to protect something pointless and think about what to do with his oil concessions if you remember the oil concessions for Al Megrahi exchange with Britain, Britain has now thrown away it's side of the bargain, while Libya already has Megrahi back. He can now renegotiate the oil business with whoever he wants. But there is a good chance that the nutty old chess player will make a foolish decision as a result of the external pressure, and get himself killed. __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

03-19-11, 06:14 AM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,645 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	After the UN resolution calling for a halt, and after the declared cease-fire, Gaddafi-loyal troops advanced further and now have entered Benghazi. Reaction by the European forces: none. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-19-11, 08:20 AM	#8
Bakkels Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Groningen, The Netherlands Posts: 709 Downloads: 101 Uploads: 6	A former minister of foreign affairs here made a comment about that yesterday evening: they are actually waiting until Ghadaffi enters Benghazi, or is at it's doorstep. That way they have a legitimate humanitarian reason to intervene, which makes it harder for anyone to criticize them afterwards. Kinda made sense I thought. __________________ My sh3 skins : http://www.gamefront.com/files/user/Bakkels Or go to the sh3 downloads section > skins

03-19-11, 06:10 AM	#11
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	Plane been shot down in Benghazi looks like it was the rebel plane, and may even have been friendly fire that did it __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

03-19-11, 05:47 AM	#5
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	Does anybody know what is happening inside Libya? I've heard very little about this lately.

03-19-11, 08:34 AM	#9
Rockstar In the Brig Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 12,614 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Lack of action on the wests part is simply saying yes to Cadaffy in case he wins. At the same time the sabre rattling is simply a show to the anti-Qwadufy forces that we support them too just in case they win. Nobody gives a rats arse if Gedffiy wins or the anti-Kadwafy forces win. Everyone is scrambling around jockying for a favorable position to whomever the winner may be.