Another terror blast... in India

[Abraham]

Will it ever end...?
Will lunatics (from whatever creed) ever understand that blowing up innocent civilians does not pave the way to victory or paradise but to more resolve of their opponents and more discrimination and misery towards their own kind...?

It's heartbreaking to see the grief of parents that have to identify the mutulated bodies of their children.

Terrorists cause suffering and bring sadness to many, but do not have the slightest change to topple independent nations through their terror.
Their battle is utterly in fain...

[darksythe]

Just read about the newest bombings after reading this post. It is so despicable. I believe that in punishment if the people are caught they should be killed in a most painfull way. Then have there corpses burnt so that they can not enter there paradise.

[Abraham]

I sometimes feel the same. But perhaps it's not just more civilised but also better to lock them up for life, so they can see at the end of their lives that their actions resulted into nothing.

When I'm in a generous mood I sometimes wish I could offer mr A. Hitler a 8-days (guided) tour to Israel... just to pis him off.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Abraham

When I'm in a generous mood I sometimes wish I could offer mr A. Hitler a 8-days (guided) tour to Israel... just to pis him off.

No thanks. I would galdy have pulled the trigger/opened the trap door/fired the bullet/plunged the knife/burried the hatchet/ect.

[darksythe]

Originally Posted by Abraham

I sometimes feel the same. But perhaps it's not just more civilised but also better to lock them up for life, so they can see at the end of their lives that their actions resulted into nothing.

When I'm in a generous mood I sometimes wish I could offer mr A. Hitler a 8-days (guided) tour to Israel... just to pis him off.

Agreeably my response would not be the civilised thing to and our culture teaches us to do the civil thing.... but one must realize that you cant win a war against an enemy whose willing to go to the extremes, and you are not. Fight fire with fire.

We would attack military targets, but their fighters are not honorable enough to show them selves as military instead they do things as citizens. This is also my argument regarding the geneva conventions treatment of POWS* a POW is a term restricted to soldiers in the uniform of a recognized army.... What uniform do these fools wear? Headwraps is about the only thing they have in common. :|\ (kinda like my medic avatar LMAO cept mine is cooler. )

[Abraham]

@ darksythe:
I do not agree with giving up basic human values and I am convinced that the West can fight and win while sticking to its principles.
I do agree with your opinion about their lack of honor and non-P.O.W. status.
I do not agree with this statement of yours:

Originally Posted by darksythe

... What uniform do these fools wear? Headwraps is about the only thing they have in common. :|\ (kinda like my medic avatar LMAO cept mine is cooler. )

I think mine is cooler... even in a gay bar!

[darksythe]

Originally Posted by Abraham

@ darksythe:
I do not agree with giving up basic human values and I am convinced that the West can fight and win while sticking to its principles.
I do agree with your opinion about their lack of honor and non-P.O.W. status.
I do not agree with this statement of yours:

I think mine is cooler... even in a gay bar!

@ Abraham:

I am glad to see that some still have faith that we may win this war without giving up on our values. As much as i respect this i do however not agree, it seems as though every day goes by and there are more cowardly attacks on our (US) troops in iraq by unidentified assailints(sp) imho fighting fire with fire may be the only way to win this. I do however hope that i am proven wrong.

About Headwrap:
LMAO ill let yah have the argument there if youll agree that both our headwraps are cooler then the ones worn by the enemy.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by darksythe

I am glad to see that some still have faith that we may win this war without giving up on our values. As much as i respect this i do however not agree, it seems as though every day goes by and there are more cowardly attacks on our (US) troops in iraq by unidentified assailints(sp) imho fighting fire with fire may be the only way to win this. I do however hope that i am proven wrong.

I am fully convinced that the West will win. In the end the stronger economic power can bring more pressure to bear on the opponent, and the national product and national growth of many Arab nations is such that they can't even afford their own government policies...
Islam as a religion is OK, but as a political concept it is clearly a disaster and blocks all progress (not unlike other religions or ideologies who had a go at politics...).

Originally Posted by darksythe

About Headwrap:
LMAO ill let yah have the argument there if youll agree that both our headwraps are cooler then the ones worn by the enemy.

I see you finally got what you were after with all your postings; a better avatar. I on the contrary am posting out of conviction...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Abraham

I am fully convinced that the West will win. In the end the stronger economic power can bring more pressure to bear on the opponent, and the national product and national growth of many Arab nations is such that they can't even afford their own government policies...

May I suggest reading a counter-argument: Truth on Trial.

[caspofungin]

all quotes from the link above...

We must teach the history of jihad against infidels, and the history of how infidels (Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians) were treated under Islam.

I'm guessing that that history will emphasize the bits involving persecution, but won't mention the parts about tolerance.

We must insist that criticism of America and Israel be balanced, not pathological, obsessive and cult-like as it is now

Fair enough, but will we also insist that those defending the policies of America and Israel aren't pathological, obsessive, or cult-like in their blind support?

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

I'm guessing that that history will emphasize the bits involving persecution, but won't mention the parts about tolerance.

I absolutely agree that all information should be as balanced and objective as possible. If not we'll only drift further apart.
One way to realise that is to honestly state your own position but to keep listening to opposing opinions and to accept facts from good sources, even if these facts are presented by your opponent.
We should also realise that any criticism on anybodies religious conviction hurts the other. That doesn't mean that we should not state our onw opinions frankly, but we should show some respect and avoid getting personal.

[Konovalov]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Will it ever end...?

Of course it will. In 10 or 20 or 30 years time though depending on our continued worldwide response to this threat. That is on the assumption that you are talking about the current worldwide Jihadist terrorist movement. Then of course I am working on the assumption that the attacks in India were the result of a Kashmiri terrorist group which is most likely but as yet hasn't been absolutely confirmed. Give it some time though.

Terrorism of course will never end. There will always be some group around the globe who has a grievance be it just or unjust, that will resort to political violence in order to achieve it's goals. It's just a sad given of the imperfection of man and woman.

[tycho102]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

all quotes from the link above...

I'm guessing that that history will emphasize the bits involving persecution, but won't mention the parts about tolerance.

You mean Sura 9:29, where the Dhimmi tolerated paying the jizya with willing submission and feeling themselves subdued? Or do you mean tolerated their beards being pulled and slapped on the face with a sandal while paying the jizya? Or did you mean wearing a tan or yellow belt to indicate their Dhimmi status?

In your post, it's the word "tolerance" part that confuses me.

I understand if you're confused by my use of a capital "D" in dhimmi.

[caspofungin]

surah 9:29

"Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day, and do not forbid what God and his Messenger have forbidden -- such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled"

specifically about idolaters, not Christians or Jews. And don't extrapolate this to mean i have anything against people other than jews, christians, or muslims.

And why not quote 4:123

"And who is there that has a fairer religion than he who submits his will to God being a do-gooder, and who follows the creed of Abraham, a man of pure faith? And God took Abraham for a friend."

Or,

"Surely those who believe and do deeds of righteousness -- unto them the All-merciful shall assign love"

"believers" being People of the Book -- christians, Jews, and Muslims.

we could sit here all day quoting and counter-quoting, but that won't get us anywhere.

and the point that i was trying to make is that, while at times non-muslims have been persecuted in islamic lands, there were other times when they were not, when islamic lands were a haven for those persecuted elsewhere. if we are going to look back at history and use it to justify our arguments, we have to look at history as a whole, not just the bits that support our arguments, ignoring those that weaken our stand.

and before you say it, yes, i know it goes both ways.

[caspofungin]

Originally Posted by tycho102

You mean Sura 9:29, where the Dhimmi tolerated paying the jizya with willing submission and feeling themselves subdued? Or do you mean tolerated their beards being pulled and slapped on the face with a sandal while paying the jizya? Or did you mean wearing a tan or yellow belt to indicate their Dhimmi status?

In your post, it's the word "tolerance" part that confuses me.

I understand if you're confused by my use of a capital "D" in dhimmi.

see my included quote above -- am i prescient or what?