Bad Dog, Rest In... whatever.

Takeda Shingen · 03-06-11, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

I like so much the "needless to say" part.

I can't understand what you're trying to look like giving so much details about your inexplicable behaviour.

My ass. You've put your dog down in a matter of minutes, and that says all about how you consider an animal.

The dog/master is definitely a relation that goes 2 ways. While you (are supposed to) like him a lot for being that sometimes brutal/clumsy/intelligent and kind animal, the dog LOVES you cause you're THE person to him, THE teacher, THE beloved one, THE ONE AND ONLY he would certainly fight for if he had to, basically the one without whom his life wouldn't be what it is. What happened HAS happened because you've not been letting the dog know how things work at home, at least not as much as he needed to understand. Now that you've been making the dog go, why the **** am I wasting my time here now that the dog is gone, I don't know. Your dog was just there asking for a close and working relationship. I'll just let you alone with your fault, though I'm sure you'll never feel guilty at all.
Basically you're the one and only who failed in your relation with the dog. A dog is innocence, just like any other animal on Earth. So there's no bad dog in the whole world, really : only bad/failing masters feeling better once they've repaired .
We may have had some brief exchanges in here in the past, at least I remember your nickname. But I'm sure we'll never have a single opportunity to speak once again in the future, tater.

"it doesn't work any more the way it's supposed to ? let's remove its batteries, and put it in the garbage". Ah, the american consumer society.

Poor guy.

C'mon, man. I agree with your views on animals, especially dogs. My gut reaction is to side with the dog as well, because I know how children can be. However, I am not tater, nor was I present for what happened, so my stance was to stay out of the matter. I'm only posting to say that tater is not a heartless man, and that you should cut him some slack as you weren't there either.

tater · 03-06-11, 04:22 PM

My son went to pet her, she snapped.

That was it. She does that. Sometimes she'd want a tummy rub, other times she'd growl.

I don't give a rat's ass what Alex thinks, frankly. Hurting my child (she drew blood, after all) is a death sentence.

The notion that I treat animals as disposable is absurd. My previous dog I had for 15 years (including some time we bought with intra-lesional chemotherapy). I'd have paid any amount of money to keep her alive indefinitely had it been possible. We spent a small fortune on a cat who is now paraplegic (and still dragging herself around the house). I should add that last week the kids left the door to downstairs open for a second, and the dog ran down and had to be yanked off the cat by my wife (mouth to neck). Ever had a kid not close a door? One mistake, and they'd get to watch their cat get murdered in front of them.

A pet that is dangerous to children?

The pound said they'd look for an owner (no kids), but face it, there are many more dogs at the pound than owners right now. Why not let a dog that is NOT dangerous have a crack at an owner, instead of a known problem diluting the pool.

joea · 03-06-11, 04:27 PM

Child vs. dog. No brainer for me.

Oberon · 03-06-11, 04:34 PM

Understand why you did it, don't agree with how, to be honest, but it's your decision. The pound would probably have been a better option although to be honest, unless it's a no-kill shelter then chances are she would have been put down anyway, so I guess in a way it was better for her to go with her master than in the hands of strangers.
I was brought up around two collies and a German Shepherd, and there were a couple of times that I did stupid things...like grab a handful of fur. What my mother did was put a child gate in the doorway between the kitchen and the living room, so the dogs stayed in the kitchen and I stayed in the living room, but obviously your situation will vary.
It would probably be best to hold off getting another dog until your son is older, it eliminates the chance of kid/dog misinteraction completely. Rescue cases are always a toughie because you don't know what the dog had been through beforehand and with her getting old and her senses dulling, old instincts come to the fore. Like I said, it probably would have been better to go to a shelter, some of them in the states are quite good with problem animals but alas they are rather few and far between and looking at it realistically, your local shelter probably wouldn't be one of them, and thus she would have spent the rest of her (probably short) life in a pound full of constantly barking dogs, confused and scared, and being even more aggressive because of it and ultimately being destroyed because she was unrehomable.

tater · 03-06-11, 04:40 PM

My son is VERY gentle. He tried to pet her because he loves doggies. Not grab, just a pet. Bam. She's growled before at both kids, immediately knew it was wrong, then skulked outside.

Snapping, however, is an escalation. All it takes is a kid (kids run through the house, after all) falling on her, or god forbid they try to be nice to her. That was pretty much a 50/50 chance of dog rolling over to be nice, or a growl. and yes, she'd had full work ups at the vet to determine if anything was wrong (bloods drawn, the works).

Fobbing her off on the pound I obviously thought about briefly, but I'd feel responsible, and she has growled at both my wife and I many times (she'd growl most times from her crate if we got up in the night, and a really serious, ugly growl (though shar pei sound that way often regardless cause they have fat faces)).

Oberon · 03-06-11, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

My son is VERY gentle. He tried to pet her because he loves doggies. Not grab, just a pet. Bam. She's growled before at both kids, immediately knew it was wrong, then skulked outside.

Snapping, however, is an escalation. All it takes is a kid (kids run through the house, after all) falling on her, or god forbid they try to be nice to her. That was pretty much a 50/50 chance of dog rolling over to be nice, or a growl. and yes, she'd had full work ups at the vet to determine if anything was wrong (bloods drawn, the works).

Fobbing her off on the pound I obviously thought about briefly, but I'd feel responsible, and she has growled at both my wife and I many times (she'd growl most times from her crate if we got up in the night, and a really serious, ugly growl (though shar pei sound that way often regardless cause they have fat faces)).

You might well find if they did an autospy that she had cancer or some form of internal problem for that kind of personality degeneration. My mother worked in animal welfare for...well...most of her life, and she came across a dog I do believe it was who was as sweet as a pie, good with kids and everything until one day it turned around and darn near took someones face off. After it was put down, they did an autopsy and found it was riddled with cancer and there was a swelling on the brain, so it could be a similar occurance.

EDIT: Read the goddamn post Oberon. Still, even with bloods and things like that, some vets can still miss cancer. Our last dog was an example of that... But, at least whatever troubles she had, she is out of them now, and she had nine years of not being in a shelter. I don't know what the average lifespan of a Shar-pei is, but nine years old in any dog is a reasonable age.

tater · 03-06-11, 04:54 PM

Yeah, they're doing that to check (the vet agreed, BTW, or she'd not have been put down). They also have to check for rabies even though she's current on all medical stuff of course.

She'd had aggression issues the whole time. We were the 4th house (the rescue lady had tried 3 others) she lived in, all that before she was 1. We solved her food bowl aggression literally by hand-feeding her kibble out of our palms for a few months (both meals, every day). The "random" aggression we just never figured out. Real Jekyll and Hyde behavior. Sometimes kids would tug on her the way kids do (mine only grabbed her (nylon) collar) and she'd be sweet, other times you look at her funny and she sounded like a pit bull. Thought about an empirical treatment with psyche drugs, actually, talked briefly about it at the vet last week at her checkup about doggie prozac.

Shar pei are typically listed as 8-10 years. Last one we had made it 15.

Gargamel · 03-06-11, 05:00 PM

Tater, my condolences. I can't imagine what I'm going to go through when I have to put mine down (or watch her die) in the near future, as she's getting old (11 this year).

I think you made the right decision. You've tried to adjust her behavior in the past, and it seems it was just senility setting in. There's no way she would have done any better in a shelter, they would have done the same within a few weeks. Nobody would have re-rescued her, not with her prognosis.

AVGWarhawk · 03-06-11, 05:00 PM

We had an Irish Setter when I was a kid. Very nice dog. Great temperament. Always friendly with everyone. One day a patient of my dads (had a practice off our house) was walking up the drive and the dog reared up and went for her throat. Out of the blue. Nothing provoked the attack. Dog was put down. It is to my understanding that some breeds over the years were bred for thinner skulls resulting in brain issue. Irish Setters no exception.

There is really nothing to stop a dog that feels he is the alpha male. Growling and biting anything in the vicinity is ok in his book. Kids included. It is only a matter of time. One day I went to work with my dad in the ER. A young girl (4 years old) was bitten in the head by the family doberman. Bite wound went right to the skull. Plastic surgeon was called in to suture the wounds in hopes to reducing the scaring of the face. Kid did not provoke this dog. Again, alpha male syndrom. Dobermans also bred for smaller sleek heads.

Some dogs you are just not going to reach no matter how much you work with them.

Sorry to hear this had to happen.

tater · 03-06-11, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

We had an Irish Setter when I was a kid. Very nice dog. Great temperament. Always friendly with everyone. One day a patient of my dads (had a practice off our house) was walking up the drive and the dog reared up and went for her throat. Out of the blue. Nothing provoked the attack. Dog was put down. It is to my understanding that some breeds over the years were bred for thinner skulls resulting in brain issue. Irish Setters no exception.

There is really nothing to stop a dog that feels he is the alpha male. Growling and biting anything in the vicinity is ok in his book. Kids included. It is only a matter of time. One day I went to work with my dad in the ER. A young girl (4 years old) was bitten in the head by the family doberman. Bite wound went right to the skull. Plastic surgeon was called in to suture the wounds in hopes to reducing the scaring of the face. Kid did not provoke this dog. Again, alpha male syndrom. Dobermans also bred for smaller sleek heads.

Some dogs you are just not going to reach no matter how much you work with them.

Sorry to hear this had to happen.

Yeah.

I posted in a matter of fact way, because I literally just came home from the vet. If I didn't love the stupid, crazy dog she'd not have made it 9 years. Trouble is that she never fully grasped that she wasn't 2d in line to ME, but last in line to the entire family. Heck, she'd still growl at me at night. Sometimes loudly growling as I told her to go to bed (which is all I'd have to do fo her to get in her crate, tell her to "go to your bed.").

The reality is that in a pack of dogs, growling and nipping are "legitimate" forms of communication. Dog A comes near Dog B who doesn't want to be bothered. Dog B growls, or even nips. Dog A, understanding "the rules" either fights Dog B and wins, or licks his wounds and realizes B is his boss. A nick of a cut is no big deal in the dog world, it's SOP, but it could seriously hurt (or kill) a kid.

Oberon · 03-06-11, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

There is really nothing to stop a dog that feels he is the alpha male.

Well...

Our German Shepherd was getting a bit above himself for a while, trying to make himself the alpha male...so Mum grabbed him one day, wrestled him to the ground on his back, pinned him down, grabbed the area around his neck with her teeth and growled at him.
He stopped trying to be the Alpha male after that...

Not an approach that I'd recommend for everyone though...

Armistead · 03-06-11, 04:45 PM

Most pounds or animal adoption agencies would do the same. If they bring in any dog that shows any aggresion, if they can't resolve it being 100% sure, dog is put down. Any dog that growls for no obvious reason when being petted, that dog would have to go.

You did right by not taking it to the pound, wouldn't be fair to the owner and think if it got through and later turned and seriously hurt someone....

Obvious, you love animals and I'm sure the loss hurts just the same.

03-06-11, 04:22 PM	#2
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	My son went to pet her, she snapped. That was it. She does that. Sometimes she'd want a tummy rub, other times she'd growl. I don't give a rat's ass what Alex thinks, frankly. Hurting my child (she drew blood, after all) is a death sentence. The notion that I treat animals as disposable is absurd. My previous dog I had for 15 years (including some time we bought with intra-lesional chemotherapy). I'd have paid any amount of money to keep her alive indefinitely had it been possible. We spent a small fortune on a cat who is now paraplegic (and still dragging herself around the house). I should add that last week the kids left the door to downstairs open for a second, and the dog ran down and had to be yanked off the cat by my wife (mouth to neck). Ever had a kid not close a door? One mistake, and they'd get to watch their cat get murdered in front of them. A pet that is dangerous to children? The pound said they'd look for an owner (no kids), but face it, there are many more dogs at the pound than owners right now. Why not let a dog that is NOT dangerous have a crack at an owner, instead of a known problem diluting the pool. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine Last edited by tater; 03-06-11 at 04:35 PM.

03-06-11, 04:40 PM	#5
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	My son is VERY gentle. He tried to pet her because he loves doggies. Not grab, just a pet. Bam. She's growled before at both kids, immediately knew it was wrong, then skulked outside. Snapping, however, is an escalation. All it takes is a kid (kids run through the house, after all) falling on her, or god forbid they try to be nice to her. That was pretty much a 50/50 chance of dog rolling over to be nice, or a growl. and yes, she'd had full work ups at the vet to determine if anything was wrong (bloods drawn, the works). Fobbing her off on the pound I obviously thought about briefly, but I'd feel responsible, and she has growled at both my wife and I many times (she'd growl most times from her crate if we got up in the night, and a really serious, ugly growl (though shar pei sound that way often regardless cause they have fat faces)). __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

03-06-11, 04:54 PM	#7
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Yeah, they're doing that to check (the vet agreed, BTW, or she'd not have been put down). They also have to check for rabies even though she's current on all medical stuff of course. She'd had aggression issues the whole time. We were the 4th house (the rescue lady had tried 3 others) she lived in, all that before she was 1. We solved her food bowl aggression literally by hand-feeding her kibble out of our palms for a few months (both meals, every day). The "random" aggression we just never figured out. Real Jekyll and Hyde behavior. Sometimes kids would tug on her the way kids do (mine only grabbed her (nylon) collar) and she'd be sweet, other times you look at her funny and she sounded like a pit bull. Thought about an empirical treatment with psyche drugs, actually, talked briefly about it at the vet last week at her checkup about doggie prozac. Shar pei are typically listed as 8-10 years. Last one we had made it 15. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

03-06-11, 05:00 PM	#8
Gargamel Lucky Sailor Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Rome Posts: 4,273 Downloads: 81 Uploads: 0	Tater, my condolences. I can't imagine what I'm going to go through when I have to put mine down (or watch her die) in the near future, as she's getting old (11 this year). I think you made the right decision. You've tried to adjust her behavior in the past, and it seems it was just senility setting in. There's no way she would have done any better in a shelter, they would have done the same within a few weeks. Nobody would have re-rescued her, not with her prognosis. __________________ Luck is a residue of Design.

03-06-11, 05:00 PM	#9
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,257 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	We had an Irish Setter when I was a kid. Very nice dog. Great temperament. Always friendly with everyone. One day a patient of my dads (had a practice off our house) was walking up the drive and the dog reared up and went for her throat. Out of the blue. Nothing provoked the attack. Dog was put down. It is to my understanding that some breeds over the years were bred for thinner skulls resulting in brain issue. Irish Setters no exception. There is really nothing to stop a dog that feels he is the alpha male. Growling and biting anything in the vicinity is ok in his book. Kids included. It is only a matter of time. One day I went to work with my dad in the ER. A young girl (4 years old) was bitten in the head by the family doberman. Bite wound went right to the skull. Plastic surgeon was called in to suture the wounds in hopes to reducing the scaring of the face. Kid did not provoke this dog. Again, alpha male syndrom. Dobermans also bred for smaller sleek heads. Some dogs you are just not going to reach no matter how much you work with them. Sorry to hear this had to happen. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

03-06-11, 04:27 PM	#3
joea Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: At periscope depth in Lake Geneva Posts: 3,512 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Child vs. dog. No brainer for me.

03-06-11, 04:34 PM	#4
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Understand why you did it, don't agree with how, to be honest, but it's your decision. The pound would probably have been a better option although to be honest, unless it's a no-kill shelter then chances are she would have been put down anyway, so I guess in a way it was better for her to go with her master than in the hands of strangers. I was brought up around two collies and a German Shepherd, and there were a couple of times that I did stupid things...like grab a handful of fur. What my mother did was put a child gate in the doorway between the kitchen and the living room, so the dogs stayed in the kitchen and I stayed in the living room, but obviously your situation will vary. It would probably be best to hold off getting another dog until your son is older, it eliminates the chance of kid/dog misinteraction completely. Rescue cases are always a toughie because you don't know what the dog had been through beforehand and with her getting old and her senses dulling, old instincts come to the fore. Like I said, it probably would have been better to go to a shelter, some of them in the states are quite good with problem animals but alas they are rather few and far between and looking at it realistically, your local shelter probably wouldn't be one of them, and thus she would have spent the rest of her (probably short) life in a pound full of constantly barking dogs, confused and scared, and being even more aggressive because of it and ultimately being destroyed because she was unrehomable.

03-06-11, 04:45 PM	#12
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Most pounds or animal adoption agencies would do the same. If they bring in any dog that shows any aggresion, if they can't resolve it being 100% sure, dog is put down. Any dog that growls for no obvious reason when being petted, that dog would have to go. You did right by not taking it to the pound, wouldn't be fair to the owner and think if it got through and later turned and seriously hurt someone.... Obvious, you love animals and I'm sure the loss hurts just the same.