Dear striking teachers in Wisconsin...

[Platapus]

Interesting that you feel you get nothing from the local, state, and federal government.

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

lets hope Governor Walker does not give in.

Wow I just realized I care so little about politics that I didn't even know who was Governor of my state.

Originally Posted by Penguin

I don't get how an u-boat can replace a teacher...

Well one things for sure, students would be experts in WWII Naval Subjects.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

So what it really comes down to is that you don't like teachers. That's okay, I don't like lawyers.

The behavior of these teachers has been nothing short of despicable.

Perhaps they could have argued for why collective bargaining should be maintained in their case - until they were stupid enough to PROVE why it shouldn't be by calling in sick en masse. And their protest antics show a clear lack of judgement.

They are going to lose this fight, partially because they have only steeled the resolve of those who were shakey in opposition to begin with. I personally have no problem with teachers in general. However, teachers in Wisconsin are HIGHLY compensated and have turned out a failing school system all the while having nearly 100% job protection.

The unions have stuck us taxpayers in the unenviable position of having a problem that we are not ALLOWED to fix. This is why most collective bargaining must go.

Most people nationwide don't understand what's going on here. This isn't about benefits - the teachers are ceding that point. This isn't about collective bargaining ... not really. The unions are decieving these idiots into thinking it is, but it really isn't. The unions are ceding to practically all of the demands that we would have bargained for in the first place.

This is about one simple thing: union money. Money. For the unions.

Walker's bill actually allows for collective bargaining to remain in place as a mirror of the private sector. When a private sector employee prospect is offered a job, salary is often negotiable but benefit plans are generally set in place. Walker is merely proposing the exact same thing.

However, what the unions don't like is that Walker wants union membership to be completely optional (without fair-share rules which requires those who opt out of the union to pay the union dues regardless) and for union dues to no longer be automatically deducted from employees' paychecks.

So, those of you in support of these teachers, don't try to bitch and moan about rights. What about the rights of the employee to say no to the unions and not pay them? Why should employees be forced to pay the unions, who substantially donate to ONE political party out of those dues, effectively compelling that employee to donate to something which may be in opposition to their views?

And why should the taxpayer face an indirect tax on each government employee via union membership, meaning that a percentage of TAX dollars go to the unions which may oppose our views?

Freedom is specifically what the unions are against! They are still allowed to bargain, members can still pay their dues, etc. But they are afraid that such a freedom to opt-out and the freedom to write a check - or not - will affect their bottom line. Ergo, the insane rhetoric followed by concessions to EVERYTHING Walker is proposing, EXCEPT that which affects the unions.

These teachers and state employees work for the taxpayers. If they choose to not work, they need to go. Considering the economy and their lavish benefits and more than competitive wages, those positions won't be hard to fill.

Can some of the locals clear this up, did Wisconsin have a budget surplus? was it projected to have a surplus to the tune of $120 million?
Has that surplus quickly been turned into a defecit of $130 million by a spending spree and tax givaways Walker has followed in his short time?
If so does that mean the workers are not really the problem but it is a problem of another fiscally conservative politician being financially reckless and irresponsible?

[Aramike]

Can some of the locals clear this up, did Wisconsin have a budget surplus? was it projected to have a surplus to the tune of $120 million?

No, that is a myth perpetuated by the left who apparently don't know that (a) While Wisconsin's budget is biennial, it does not make concessions to debt, (b) you actually have to read a document completely to understand it, (c) Walker's tax breaks for businesses haven't even begun yet.

Here's a breakdown: http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...ve-budget-sur/

(For the record, I personally think Politifact tends to go soft on the left, but they've generally gotten it right.)

A quote:

There is, indeed, a projected deficit that required attention, and Walker and GOP lawmakers did not create it.

More on that second point in a bit.

The confusion, it appears, stems from a section in Lang’s memo that -- read on its own -- does project a $121 million surplus in the state’s general fund as of June 30, 2011.

But the remainder of the routine memo -- consider it the fine print -- outlines $258 million in unpaid bills or expected shortfalls in programs such as Medicaid services for the needy ($174 million alone), the public defender’s office and corrections. Additionally, the state owes Minnesota $58.7 million under a discontinued tax reciprocity deal.

The result, by our math and Lang’s, is the $137 million shortfall.

It would be closer to the $340 million figure if the figure included the $200 million owed to the state’s patient compensation fund, a debt courts have declared resulted from an illegal raid on the fund under former Gov. Jim Doyle.

Emphasis mine.

This memo has been circulating for awhile, well before Maddow proved her ignorance via sensationalizing it without completely grasping the situation.

[XabbaRus]

Originally Posted by Penguin

What I always find odd, is that most seem to think that working for many hours a week somehow proofs that they are diligent and hard-working. It just proofs that they spend many hours at work.
It's all about effectiveness. Some people need 6 hours for a task, some 8, some longer.
Personally, I prefer to work 6 hours with full speed and concentration, with no breaks over sitting on the ass for 12 hours and not doing much. Sadly, also those exhausting 12 hour days without break often happen , but after some days you are burned out when you work in a fast-paced environment.

I agree with this. My old boss a few times used to question why I only seemed to do my contracted 37.5 hours a week and if I had enough work to do. I answered that I just prioritise well and that if I have spare capacity I would look for stuff to do. He had this idea that unless you were putting 45+ hours on your time sheer you weren't "going the extra mile". Anyway I believe that if you work beyond your mandated hours you should get paid for it.

So the shortfall is projected to be lower than it usually is but thats from before the current governor.
The new governor intends to cut spending to save money in the future but also cut revenue at the same time seemingly by the same amount.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Aramike

The behavior of these teachers has been nothing short of despicable.

Perhaps they could have argued for why collective bargaining should be maintained in their case - until they were stupid enough to PROVE why it shouldn't be by calling in sick en masse. And their protest antics show a clear lack of judgement.

They are going to lose this fight, partially because they have only steeled the resolve of those who were shakey in opposition to begin with. I personally have no problem with teachers in general. However, teachers in Wisconsin are HIGHLY compensated and have turned out a failing school system all the while having nearly 100% job protection.

The unions have stuck us taxpayers in the unenviable position of having a problem that we are not ALLOWED to fix. This is why most collective bargaining must go.

Most people nationwide don't understand what's going on here. This isn't about benefits - the teachers are ceding that point. This isn't about collective bargaining ... not really. The unions are decieving these idiots into thinking it is, but it really isn't. The unions are ceding to practically all of the demands that we would have bargained for in the first place.

This is about one simple thing: union money. Money. For the unions.

Walker's bill actually allows for collective bargaining to remain in place as a mirror of the private sector. When a private sector employee prospect is offered a job, salary is often negotiable but benefit plans are generally set in place. Walker is merely proposing the exact same thing.

However, what the unions don't like is that Walker wants union membership to be completely optional (without fair-share rules which requires those who opt out of the union to pay the union dues regardless) and for union dues to no longer be automatically deducted from employees' paychecks.

So, those of you in support of these teachers, don't try to bitch and moan about rights. What about the rights of the employee to say no to the unions and not pay them? Why should employees be forced to pay the unions, who substantially donate to ONE political party out of those dues, effectively compelling that employee to donate to something which may be in opposition to their views?

And why should the taxpayer face an indirect tax on each government employee via union membership, meaning that a percentage of TAX dollars go to the unions which may oppose our views?

Freedom is specifically what the unions are against! They are still allowed to bargain, members can still pay their dues, etc. But they are afraid that such a freedom to opt-out and the freedom to write a check - or not - will affect their bottom line. Ergo, the insane rhetoric followed by concessions to EVERYTHING Walker is proposing, EXCEPT that which affects the unions.

These teachers and state employees work for the taxpayers. If they choose to not work, they need to go. Considering the economy and their lavish benefits and more than competitive wages, those positions won't be hard to fill.

The unions aren't deceiving anyone, and the teachers are not idiots. The teachers do what they have to do to survive. By that, I am refering to the state of affairs in education. We live in a culture that demonizes educators, and yet places the unreasonable and impossible demand of raising children. Teachers have become surrogate parents because their parents are uninterested in acting in this role. This is not something that is found in only one income bracket; I have seen numerous students come to school unkempt and unfed by parents who can clearly afford to do so.

What's more, parents now sending the conflicting message in that they expect that their child will not be held accountable for their behavior and academic performance. Students are rarely suspended from school anymore, and are almost always passed on to the next grade level, regardless of demonstrated ability. Attempting to take a stand on this sort of matter results in a hell of a mess from the parents, which frequently includes legal action. This is where the union steps in. The teachers need that legal protection. But the union wants what it wants as well; it wants those teachers on the picket line, at the rally, making the testimonial. Those that do not comply simply do not see the level of effort made by the union. This I have seen first hand.

So, if you want to trash the teachers unions, I am fine with that. I've done so myself. However, you should keep in mind that most of those teachers have been compelled to be involved in this before you begin to wish them harm.

[AVGWarhawk]

The unions aren't deceiving anyone, and the teachers are not idiots.

True, there is no deception. Tenure. They know what it is and how to get it. Once gotten life is cheeky. They do not hide this fact. So yes, they are not idiots in this respect.

We live in a culture that demonizes educators

How are teacher demonized? You lost me hear.

and yet places the unreasonable and impossible demand of raising children. Teachers have become surrogate parents because their parents are uninterested in acting in this role. This is not something that is found in only one income bracket; I have seen numerous students come to school unkempt and unfed by parents who can clearly afford to do so.

Yes, teachers in many respects have become the parent. Teachers certainly spend more waking hours with the children than their parents do. My wife works in a Title One school. These are kids in the lower income bracket. Rides to school are provided by school bus and or taxi. Many of these kids are picked up at state sponsored hotel rooms. They are homeless. Breakfast and lunch are provided via the school. School supplies and clothing are provided by vouchers for the parent. The parents of these kids are capable of working and doing a better job raising their child but choose to take the easy road. However, some of these parents are in a pickle and do attempt to work it out.

What's more, parents now sending the conflicting message in that they expect that their child will not be held accountable for their behavior and academic performance. Students are rarely suspended from school anymore, and are almost always passed on to the next grade level, regardless of demonstrated ability. Attempting to take a stand on this sort of matter results in a hell of a mess from the parents, which frequently includes legal action. This is where the union steps in. The teachers need that legal protection. But the union wants what it wants as well; it wants those teachers on the picket line, at the rally, making the testimonial. Those that do not comply simply do not see the level of effort made by the union. This I have seen first hand.

Yes, many kids run amuck at home and at school. For most academic performance is just making it to school on time. Yes, many kids are not suspended for fear of legal retribution by the parent of said child because after all...little Johnny is not capable of doing such things like bring a knife into school. As far as students just being sent on without receiving the education of that grade level I have to agree but over the years this has come to a screeching halt. Teacher are now held accountable for the overall score of the MSA here in MD. If the students are below a satisfactory grade the teacher is removed. Some thing that Michele Rhee did for DC schools and I applaud her for it. Far to many teachers for many years have been getting away with doing nothing and hiding behind tenure. As far as the unions, many teachers have been removed from the job for everything from sexual impropriety, misguided advise and inappropriate after school activity. These teachers are sent home with pay for months on end until the problem is reviewed by the superintendent and the union backs the teacher. Some of the legal protection provided is misguided IMO.

So, if you want to trash the teachers unions, I am fine with that. I've done so myself. However, you should keep in mind that most of those teachers have been compelled to be involved in this before you begin to wish them harm.

That is just it, the union is being trashed. For some of their past activity it is justified. What I find interesting is the teachers storming the capital looking for blood, calling in sick and generally making a mess of the situation. First, it make a bad impression on the students and second, is not the union the voice of the teachers? Are the teacher not contractually obligated to be at school and teaching or it is ok to take the day off (with pay) and storm the capital? Once again, no retribution. The wards are running the aslyum.

[Takeda Shingen]

AVG, just read the amount of trashing teachers in the thread. There's my answer towards demonization. The unions are secondary targets by the members of SubSim. I believe that they have the equation inverted. And as I said before, when the union tells you to do it, you do it or forego your support. Change the unions and you kill the problem. Firing every teacher in the State of Wisconsin does not accomplish this goal.

There are pedophiles in every profession.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

So the shortfall is projected to be lower than it usually is but thats from before the current governor.
The new governor intends to cut spending to save money in the future but also cut revenue at the same time seemingly by the same amount.

Specifically, he plans to provide total tax forgiveness for two years for any major business moving to Wisconsin. It's his hope that measures such as these will help to create 250,000 jobs. If successful, the tax revenue derived from such an increase in employment plus the decrease in state entitlement payouts would more than offset any shortfall from the measure itself.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

The unions aren't deceiving anyone, and the teachers are not idiots. The teachers do what they have to do to survive. By that, I am refering to the state of affairs in education. We live in a culture that demonizes educators, and yet places the unreasonable and impossible demand of raising children. Teachers have become surrogate parents because their parents are uninterested in acting in this role. This is not something that is found in only one income bracket; I have seen numerous students come to school unkempt and unfed by parents who can clearly afford to do so.

What's more, parents now sending the conflicting message in that they expect that their child will not be held accountable for their behavior and academic performance. Students are rarely suspended from school anymore, and are almost always passed on to the next grade level, regardless of demonstrated ability. Attempting to take a stand on this sort of matter results in a hell of a mess from the parents, which frequently includes legal action. This is where the union steps in. The teachers need that legal protection. But the union wants what it wants as well; it wants those teachers on the picket line, at the rally, making the testimonial. Those that do not comply simply do not see the level of effort made by the union. This I have seen first hand.

So, if you want to trash the teachers unions, I am fine with that. I've done so myself. However, you should keep in mind that most of those teachers have been compelled to be involved in this before you begin to wish them harm.

I'm sorry man, but I think you've gotten this one wrong.

I'm specifically referring to the teachers who are marching in lockstep with those who hold up signs comparing Walker to Hitler while skipping out of their job in support of what amounts to an ILLEGAL strike. They are idiots because they are destroying their cause.

Just because the union says "go" doesn't mean they had to. Furthermore, it doesn't mean they had to behave in the manner in which they have been. They aren't sheep, as shown by the fact that, in most cases, the majority of teachers did NOT call in. I'm not referring to those people as idiots.

So you know, however, unions are my primary target here. They need to go. But that doesn't excuse the teachers.

AVG: Well said.

[Growler]

American society really makes me shake my head in wonder. We seem to want it all in return for very little effort on our parts. This is a case in point.

We could:
A.) Take an active role in our kids' education, raise responsible people, send them to schools that pay teachers well, treat students and teachers fairly, allow teachers to actually teach, and they won't need a union;

or

B.) Comparatively ignore little Johnny and Janey, but treat them like perfect little jewels that couldn't possibly be incorrect, remove "fail" (read: responsibility for one's action(s) or inaction(s)) from the school lexicon, and blame teachers for those perfect kids not performing, then gripe when unionized teachers walk.

This is another example of addressing the wrong problem. The problem isn't teachers, or unions. The problem that needs addressing is the society that created the conditions that brought all of this here today.

Specifically, he plans to provide total tax forgiveness for two years for any major business moving to Wisconsin.

I can think of some spectacular failures that have followed in that line of planning. But it might work.


Here's a thought though on the whole benefits package, if there was a universal healthcare plan wouldn't that remove the unions need to bargain to get employees healthcare coverage from work ?

[yubba]

The left got what they wanted now we are just like europe.