Of refits, new commands, rank, and retirements

[WH4K]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

This may come as a bit of a shock to some. But I haven't really PLAYED this game in a couple years. So i have a few questions.

<questions truncated>

Answers in the order asked:

1) Yes. I started my career in S-boats out of Manila at the very beginning of the war. Have had regular refits/upgrades since. Currently driving a Balao-class.

2) Have had four new-to-me boats, a brand new Balao most recently.

One change was a downgrade from a Salmon boat to a Porpoise boat. Probably because I just about wrecked my Salmon; there was some comment when I put in at Midway to the effect that "the mechanics stare in wonder that your boat is still afloat." I suppose the downgrade to a Porpoise was the Navy's way of saying, "Until you prove to us that you can take care of nice things, use this rustbucket."

That seems realistic. I don't know how the Navy actually did things in WW2, but I assume that a badly damaged fleet boat would have been either returned to the US for repairs or scrapped. You wouldn't be going back out in the same boat a few days later.

3) I was "strongly encouraged" to retire after returning with the nearly-destroyed Salmon boat.

4) No notification whatsoever when I got promoted.

Another thing that's broken about the promotions: Any existing promotion statements are revised with the name of your newest command, instead of the actual boat you were commanding at the time.

Also: Thanks for putting in the ice cream maker! I just noticed that in the TMO 2.0->2.1 upgrade notes.

[Ducimus]

Ok, i think I've figured out some things regarding refits, new commands, and retirements.

I've ahh.. been "patrolling" around Pearl Harbor a lot lately.


Just testing things out, seeing how the game behaves. A couple days and a case of beer later, i think i've figured it out. Before i continue, there is one thing about the games logic that i think is happening, and is a vital observation:

Refit and new command do not seem to be mutually exclusive. The criteria to get either is the same. So if you meet this criteria, the game offers you the choice of a New command, OR a refit. Naturally, (and unfortunately), the game seems to want to default to new command. So if your determined to see a single boat through the entire war, this poses a bit of a problem since the game just offered you a new command in place of a refit. This is why some people end up in 1944, with a prewar conning tower, and narry a refit in site. Every new command you decline, was where you would have gotten a refit, if it weren't for the game wanting to offer you a new command first if available. Only when a new command is NOT available, will the game reliably offer you a refit.

The rest, is all about patrol ratings. I'll just paste this here, and explain what i tried:


With how refits and new commands work in mind, for the following experiments, i modified my local game so ONLY the Tambor class was available throughout the war. Each experiment was done with creating a new career game in 1941.

Experiment #1:
Made the above mission pictured test worth 601 renown. Which would put each completion as a "Good" rating. I then ran simulated patrols where every other patrol, i deliberatly did not complete the reach area objective. This way, i would have good patrols, mixed with Poor patrols equally. In this scenario:

- I was offered to retire to Anapolis as an instructor
- it cost me renown to stay at sea.
- I recieved the first refit without problem. The second refit (much to my amazement) bugged the boats configuration.

Experiment #2:
In this run, i completed EVERY simulated patrol with a "good" rating. In this scenario.
- I was never offered a retirement
- It cost me no renown to stay at sea
- Recieved 2nd and 3rd refits, without any problem. (also, much to my amazement after the first experiment)


To make sure i was seeing what i was seeing here:

Experiment #3:
I lowered the renown requirements on what was classified as a "good patrol". to 250 renown instead of 600. I also lowered the renown awarded per test run to 300. The main reason for this, is because i wanted to make sure it was the patrol rating and not the cumulative renown earned that was the cause. I then ran every patrol to complete the objective and earn 300 renown for the "good" rating. Results were identical to test run number 2.
- I was never offered a retirement
- It cost me no renown to stay at sea
- Recieved 2nd and 3rd refits, without any problem.

After this, i took a closer look at the patrol rating formula, and starting hashing out some numbers.

New Campaign Rating = Old campaign rating + last patrol rating / 2

So lets say you start with 0 patrol rating. And go on your first patrol and score 620 renown. This places the patrol as "good". Which gives it a value of 1.

Old campaign rating of 0 + last patrol rating of 1 divided by 2 = 0.5
(0 + 1) / 2 = 0.5

So then i thought, well, ok, what happens if you don't get a "good" rating, but an "average" rating. How would that work out? In the above chart, an average rating is a renown score of 101 to 600, and it gives a patrol rating of 0.

So what happens if i apply an "average" patrol against my previous "good" patrol?

Old campaign rating of 0.5 + last patrol rating of 0 divided by 2 = 0.25
(0.5 + 0) / 2 =0.25


At this i realized, that an "average" patrol actually lowers your overall score. Halved it in fact. At this i developed a theory. It was my thought that if this number crunching was accurate, then if a made another test run with "average" patrols, then the results i should see, would be just like experiment number 1.

Experiment #4:
I modified the mission script to award 610 renown. To this end, i completed ONE patrol thereby effecting one "good" patrol rating. I then exited the game, and changed the test mission renown award to 250. Seemed like a nice number. Higher then 100, lower then 600. Definatly falls in to the "average" category. I then ran subsequent simulated patrols, deliberatly achieving an "average" patrol. Going by the numbers, my career score should drop each patrol, despite having earned 250 renown. That being the case, i should see what i saw in experiment number 1. Which i did:

- I was offered to retire to Anapolis as an instructor
- it cost me renown to stay at sea.
- I recieved the first refit without problem. The second refit bugged the boats configuration.


My conclusion is, that you MUST make a good patrol rating every patrol. An average rating won't do. It will pretty much cut your score in half. It's also my thought that the design behind how refits, new commands and retirements is supposed to work is flawed. Not to mention bugging the boats crew configuration.

An easy fix for refits not bugging out, and never being retired?
A.)Earn a crap load of renown (more then 600 if playing TMO)

or

b.) simply lower the value required to earn a "good" patrol rating
edit in data/cfg/UPC.cfg file:

RenownValuesUS=-200,-100,100,600,1300,2000

I'd suggest 250, as thats what most missions reward. That way you get a good rating, just for showing up. (kinda like modern education eh? )


An easy fix to get refits instead of new commands, or at least get them reliably?

There's no easy fix for this that i can think of, other then isolating what boats are available, so the game has no boat to send you to as an upgrade. This means either
a.) removing all other boats from play (ive tested this, and it works)
or
b.) changing the "UpgradeClass="variable in EVERY submarine.upc file to be the same number, so no boat is considered an upgrade (This is untested )



Ok, clear as mud?

[I'm goin' down]

I retired and now they will not let me aboard any boat. I guess it is time to see if the U-Boat's will take me.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I retired and now they will not let me aboard any boat. I guess it is time to see if the U-Boat's will take me.

This is just how it works in SH4, I don't think it matter what side you play on. Of course, the effects on the stock german side would be negligable since there's only two boats to choose from, and neither one has a refit option.

[TorpX]

Well, that explains why I didn't get any upgrades before.

One question; how does the selection of easy, hard, very hard, etc. (at the start of a career), come into play?

[Mescator]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Well, that explains why I didn't get any upgrades before.

One question; how does the selection of easy, hard, very hard, etc. (at the start of a career), come into play?

I believe they simply determine which realism settings you start with. (It is worth noting though, the higher the realism, the more renown you get from sinkings)

[Hylander_1314]

Ducimus,
"RenownValuesUS=-200,-100,100,600,1300,2000"

This is what I have done for some time now, changing the 600 to 300 since the refit issue seems to be a problem, and although it helps, it is not a "silver bullet" even at 300.

I get offers for new boats more often, but the refits are still ellusive. And since I have been playing more of the Asiatic Fleet campaigns as I burned out on Pearl, if I accept a new boat, that is where you go and stay until operations for the newer boats open up in Brisbane and Fremantle.

What I am wondering though, is why I get offerred a Gato boat all the time when I'm on a Sargo or Salmon boat, without being offerred a Gar or Tambor boat first. If memory serves, the original SH game, yeah the old DOS game, would offer you a Gar, or Tambor class boat before getting a Gato.

I can see going from a Gato to a Balao since the designs evoled that way. Just wish they would offer the Gar and or Tambor boats if applicable to the Asiatic Fleet so you aren't transfered to Pearl every time, unless you want to risk using the older boats with increasing ASW by the enemy.
Yeah the Gar and Tambor don't go any deeper than the Sargo and Salmon boats, but te 2 extra bow tubes give you more firepower.

[Hylander_1314]

Okay, July 24th 1942 and I just got my Gato boat and didn't get bounced from Brisbane back to Pearl, even though the TMO Manual has Nov '42 as the date the Gato is available there. So I won't complain. I like operating out of that port, even moreso than Fremantle. Not too many shallow operations there. Kinda tight when operating in the Solomons, but it's a good challenge to lose DDs in the "Slot".

The tower still has the old style look, like a billboard advertising free coffee and donuts at a used car sales lot. So I will see how long it takes to get a refit if one is offered and I will play with the value in the UPC.cfg file to see what it does at different levels on a patrol basis.

[Arael]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Just testing things out, seeing how the game behaves. A couple days and a case of beer later, i think i've figured it out. Before i continue, there is one thing about the games logic that i think is happening, and is a vital observation:

Refit and new command do not seem to be mutually exclusive. The criteria to get either is the same. So if you meet this criteria, the game offers you the choice of a New command, OR a refit. Naturally, (and unfortunately), the game seems to want to default to new command. So if your determined to see a single boat through the entire war, this poses a bit of a problem since the game just offered you a new command in place of a refit. This is why some people end up in 1944, with a prewar conning tower, and narry a refit in site. Every new command you decline, was where you would have gotten a refit, if it weren't for the game wanting to offer you a new command first if available. Only when a new command is NOT available, will the game reliably offer you a refit...

...There's no easy fix for this that i can think of, other then isolating what boats are available, so the game has no boat to send you to as an upgrade. This means either
a.) removing all other boats from play (ive tested this, and it works)
or
b.) changing the "UpgradeClass="variable in EVERY submarine.upc file to be the same number, so no boat is considered an upgrade (This is untested )

Ok, clear as mud?

Seriously? Who was the genius who thought that was a good idea? I guess I'll try the "upgrade class" thing and see if I can get a refit for my ship.

[Ducimus]

Well, i ran another test run tonight. The only thing that makes it tolerable, is good ole captain morgan! Come to think of it, i have a long history in this community with modding and captain morgan. My Archnemisis, KL, would probably testify to that from my days on the GWX team. (Did i just admit that? )


Anywho..... if you set all your upgrade class in the up files to the same value, you shouldn't get any new commands, which means, you should get your refits.

Hmmm.. I wonder if i need to poll this.

Which would people rather have i wonder. New commands, or refits? I need a value for a default installation!

[Istar]

Isn't this related to the one or many question ?

If you'd go for the refit only option, that`s actually pretty close to my comment in that thread on having 1 boat to choose from at the start of your campaign.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Istar

Isn't this related to the one or many question ?
.

Yes and no. While related, this is a separate issue.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Well, i ran another test run tonight. The only thing that makes it tolerable, is good ole captain morgan! Come to think of it, i have a long history in this community with modding and captain morgan. My Archnemisis, KL, would probably testify to that from my days on the GWX team. (Did i just admit that? )


Anywho..... if you set all your upgrade class in the up files to the same value, you shouldn't get any new commands, which means, you should get your refits.

Hmmm.. I wonder if i need to poll this.

Which would people rather have i wonder. New commands, or refits? I need a value for a default installation!

Who is KL and what boat is this Morgan fellow in charge of ?
Nevermind......................................... ..........


I don't think new commands should be too easy to come by. I think one should complete at least 3 or 4 patrols before being offered a new command (with pretty good results overall). Medals and a new boat are really the only rewards you can earn in the game; renoun, in itself, means little. IOW, you should have to earn it.

[Arael]

What I did was keep the Gato set at upgrade level 2, but I switched the availability start date to 1943. That way the game is forced to refit for a while before offering me an upgrade. Too, it seems like a submarine commander that already had a sub would be pretty far down on the give-a-new-sub list.

[WH4K]

I've had a Balao for some time now. After my last patrol, I was given a refit (no choice), but I'm a little fuzzy on what the changes were, exactly.

I noticed that I had to re-purchase my radar (both SJ-1 and Improved SD), listening gear (JP) and AA guns. I don't just mean I had to re-purchase radar upgrades, I mean I would have had no radar at all if I had not done so.

Is that intentional, or another leftover bug from stock SH4?