Florida Governor axes "Obamarail" (bravo!)

[Takeda Shingen]

I can't wait to see what the Republicans' solution to reducing our dependence on oil will be.

Oh, and if anyone is interested, I drive a 2008 Honda Civic hybrid coupe (black). 43 MPG city/55 MPG highway. However, I ride my bike to work three days a week. Great exercise.

[Growler]

Two Words.

Am Trak.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Growler

Two Words.

Am Trak.

Two other words...losing proposition. Just like Am Trak.

[yubba]

Government can't run a cementary let alone a railroad, thank god for Rick Scott maybe we'll get some sanity in our state government. They spent years and a untolled amount of money study-ing this boondoggle. I wouldn't mind seeing a transit rail system here in florida, the tracks are already laid, all they got to do is put trains on them. Government waste is not the way to prosparity.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Growler

Two Words.

Am Trak.

Am Trak is out of date when it comes to people moving. Its slow and outdated and unable to compete with Aircraft: which are HEAVILY Dependant on oil. If you fly coast to coast you have burned more fuel than driving all year. I'm studying to enter the industry and I can even see that aircraft as the main source of travel for our society is unsustainable. It simply uses to much fuel, and unless there is some magic breakthrough, you can't power a flying machine on clean energy.

Oh and By the way, Amtrak was set up by the government in 1971 and all of its preferred stock is held by the US federal govt.

[UnderseaLcpl]

As a railroader myself, I think I have a uniquely qualified perspective to offer, and I have to agree with Gov. Scott's decision.

I can understand the desire to have a socially-funded, eco-friendly, high-effeciency passenger rail service. It certainly seems like it would be the right thing to do for a number of reasons. Unfortunately, it doesn't work.

The main reason and most related reasons it doesn't work is (surprise) that the US government is in charge of it. I realize that the actual administration takes place below the federal level, but what ought to be relatively simple act of operating a rail line, especially a passenger rail line, is so bound up in regulations, red tape, fairness legislation, government unions, and legal liability that it is literally impossible without increasingly vast amounts of taxpayer money, even for the government.

My employer, BNSF Railways, would love to provide passenger service. In fact, we were seriously considering getting back into the business when Obama first started talking about devoting funds to improve the national passenger rail network, as was the Union Pacific. There are quite a few routes that have potential for profitability.

However, even with the money we would have received, after we lobbied and got more, it still wasn't even close to worth the effort. No money in it. It's that difficult. As it is, we have a hard enough time expanding our rail-freight network, which was "deregulated" like 40 years ago. Deregulated my arse. I have a general operations manual that's thicker than War and Peace and roughly as comprehensible and relevant.....if it were written in Cyrillic instead of legalese, and as topical.

Trains are extremely efficient. Just one train can carry 10,000 tons of freight 400 miles while consuming only one gallon of gas per ton. Passenger trains are only slightly less efficient because of space requirements, but they weigh a lot less and don't require as much effort to accelerate. And they do it at the rate of 3 accidents per million miles traveled. You'd think that with stats like that the government would be throwing money and permissions at us, to promote public safety and get trucks and cars off the road, but it doesn't.

What proponents are missing is the fact that the government doesn't really care about the same things they do. Politicians may profess to be concerned about the environment or safety or what have you, but their professed concern doesn't stop them from ruining passenger rail service by trying to control it or throwing money at special interests or making a statement for the benefit of voters or bothering to learn just exactly what the hell it is they're doing in the first place. For the record, I consider Gov. Scott to be among their number. He's just riding the political winds, which is about all you can expect from someone whose entire reason for existence hinges upon votes.

Of course, private industry is not a panacea. We're not going to spend $1.5 million per mile of track for the sole purpose of establishing a passenger line out of the goodness of our hearts, but what we will do is establish passenger lines in profitable areas, which are necessarily densely populated and badly in need of the service.

[yubba]

Where in the world does BNSF run ? I was involved with FEC rail for awhile, unloading hopper cars. I can't run a limo service, because of all government regs and fuel cost, that hampered florida's sun rail. And they say big government is the answer, more government means less jobs, do the math.

[Armistead]

The fact is high speed rail would've been a good idea at the right time, but it really depends of local. We're not Japan, in very small highly populated areas high rail has a use. I honesly don't see where we need it cept maybe a few areas and bus service would probably be better.

If it's a great idea, let a private company build it and make it profitable.

Sure, the world is leaving us behind in technology, but nations like Japan and India educate. They don't deal with millions of illegals or teachers unions. Our school systems in NC suck and were probably rated higher than most states for population.

What we need before anything is an energy policy, the leading country of the world and no plan at all, it has to start with oil, clean coal, natural gas, nuclear, ect...and build the future from there. Trying to force solar and wind now as the priority is plain stupid.

The rail would be another government run corporate monopoly before it was over.

[Tchocky]

The golden journey time seems to around 4-5 hours - that's where people will take a train journey rather than fly. The speed reduction is outweighed by the city-centre location of train stations and the lack of security/check-in time restrictions.

[AVGWarhawk]

Trying to force solor and wind now as the priority is plain stupid.

These are truly emission free sources of energy. Clean coal? I do not believe clean coal exists. There is nothing clean about it as far as I can tell. Nuclear? What about the byproduct that lasts for centuries? Natural gas? Is the the cleanest out of the bunch of burning material?

[August]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

These are truly emission free sources of energy. Clean coal? I do not believe clean coal exists. There is nothing clean about it as far as I can tell. Nuclear? What about the byproduct that lasts for centuries? Natural gas? Is the the cleanest out of the bunch of burning material?

Nothing is the perfect solution. Even solar and wind systems both require batteries which are highly polluting to manufacture and highly polluting to dispose of.

And natural gas has a disturbing tendancy to blow things up.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110210/...ding_explosion
http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-09-1...oke-inhalation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison,..._gas_explosion
http://www.heatingoil.com/blog/123290208/
http://travel.usatoday.com/hotels/po...rists/131116/1

[DarkFish]

If it's a great idea, let a private company build it and make it profitable.

Well that's the point, short-term it's probably not a good investment so no private company will ever do it.

Sure, the world is leaving us behind in technology, but nations like Japan and India educate. They don't deal with millions of illegals or teachers unions. Our school systems in NC suck and were probably rated higher than most states for population.

No, countries like Japan (I wouldn't really count India) invest. They invest in technology, thereby promoting its usage, thereby increasing the need and the tech level of the country.

What we need before anything is an energy policy, the leading country of the world and no plan at all, it has to start with oil, clean coal, natural gas, nuclear, ect...and build the future from there. Trying to force solar and wind now as the priority is plain stupid.

Did someone tell you yet the world oil supply is running out? And clean coal doesn't exist. Natural gas will run out sometime as well. And nuclear energy produces tons of waste.
Solar, wind and water energy don't produce waste and are completely free.

Hmmm, well unless its changed since i lived there, it's not exactly anywhere, it's not nearly as quick as a personal vehicle, and if sleeping in the Wuzburg train station waiting for the morning train to Ansbach is efficient, well... but it WAS cheap compared to gas and car costs.

That's the normal train system. Using the high-speed train system, you can get from Amsterdam to Paris in just 3 hours, way faster than any car can do.

[Armistead]

Dark,

If a private firm can't do it with profit, the government certainly couldn't, short term or long. Again, where it can be made to work in areas run by the private sector, a combination of federal and private money should make it happen as a non profit.

Right now America is broke, it's infrastructure crumbling, SS and medicare 60 trillion in debt and millions of Americans falling into poverty every month. SS nor medicare should be broke, but government spent it and mass cuts are coming that will devestate those already in poverty. The last thing we need is more government waste. The world is debating and no doubt will eventually drop the US dollar if we don't control spending. When in crisis you only spend on what's needed.

The first thing you must have to create technology is the educated people to invent it, make it, market it, run it and make it profitable why affordable.

The US has no energy plan. I agree we need to turn to other resources, but it will take time and we won't be able to transition from oil to solar for decades. We will need other forms of energy. Eventually the natural process of oil will become more expensive and the markets will seek to mass market better solutions. We're certainly headed for a energy crisis, so I'm in the camp...Do everything. If we have a failed economy, we won't have the money for any investment.

I think the world will face major crisis in the future. Many think it will have to be solved by a global government takeover of the worlds resources, but my guess is the problem will resolve itself the normal way...war, famine, disease, ect....and this time it will set us back 100 years.

TB Pickens failed in the wind business, now he is pushing natural gas.



Just read the difference between the US and Japan. If the US has any chance to hold a tech advantage in the future, we'll have to continue to import higher education. We've created a generation of lazy youth that have no discipline that will be a health care crisis in cost due to so many overweight.



"By the graduating age of the average American high school student, a substantial number of these students have little knowledge of geography or relative historical events (Hirsch 8). Of the 2.4 million Americans who graduate from high school, 25% cannot read or write at the eighth-grade or "functionally literate" level. Most 17 year olds in school cannot summarize a newspaper article, write a job request letter, solve real life math problems, or even follow a bus schedule (Ehrlich 129). About 33% of American high school students drop out every year and after 12 weeks of summer vacation, the average American student forgets 33% of what he had learned the previous year (Trudeau 1).
A typical Japanese student spends 6 hours every night doing homework during a school year that is 60 days longer than America's (Trudeau 1). Following a regular school day 18.6% of elementary school children and 52.2% of middle school children attend Juku cramming schools bringing them home at midnight from an 18 hour work day (Weisman A8). At the age of 18, 98% voluntarily seek higher education in a university. In early adolescence, Japanese students are 2 to 3 years ahead of their American counterparts and by the age of 18, 98% of Japanese students far surpass that of Americans of the same age. It's no surprise then that a 10th grade Japanese student is envious of the leisure time enjoyed by American college sophomores, his academic counterpart"

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Armistead

"By the graduating age of the average American high school student, a substantial number of these students have little knowledge of geography or relative historical events (Hirsch 8). Of the 2.4 million Americans who graduate from high school, 25% cannot read or write at the eighth-grade or "functionally literate" level.

One only needs to read these boards to know that's true.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Armistead

If a private firm can't do it with profit, the government certainly couldn't, short term or long.

Not directly, no. In fact, I think the short-term costs would far outweigh the short-term profits.
But the development of one high-tech system promotes the development and usage of other high-tech systems. Which could bring back the US as a world leader in technology, thereby improving the economy. Which would give profits. Long term profits. Not directly, the railway itself might make losses until eternity, but indirectly there is a very real chance it would turn out positive.

The last thing we need is more government waste. The world is debating and no doubt will eventually drop the US dollar if we don't control spending. When in crisis you only spend on what's needed.

True. But there are some things you shouldn't stop spending money on. One of those is development and education. Without those you'll inevitably come into technological stagnation, which will lead to economic stagnation. Which is what is happening right now.

And BTW, the US dollar will be eventually dropped if you don't increase spending on development.

The first thing you must have to create technology is the educated people to invent it, make it, market it, run it and make it profitable why affordable.

Which proves my point. You don't have the people, so you don't invest in it, so you don't have the people. A vicious circle, isn't it?

The US has no energy plan. I agree we need to turn to other resources, but it will take time and we won't be able to transition from oil to solar for decades. We will need other forms of energy. Eventually the natural process of oil will become more expensive and the markets will seek to mass market better solutions. We're certainly headed for a energy crisis, so I'm in the camp...Do everything. If we have a failed economy, we won't have the money for any investment.

Exactly! So you must invest now that you still have *some* money. Because there will be a time when it's too late, and I promise you don't want to be in the losing camp then.

I think the world will face major crisis in the future. Many think it will have to be solved by a global government takeover of the worlds resources, but my guess is the problem will resolve itself the normal way...war, famine, disease, ect....and this time it will set us back 100 years.

Just read the difference between the US and Japan. If the US has any chance to hold a tech advantage in the future, we'll have to continue to import higher education. We've created a generation of lazy youth that have no discipline that will be a health care crisis in cost due to so many overweight.



"By the graduating age of the average American high school student, a substantial number of these students have little knowledge of geography or relative historical events (Hirsch 8). Of the 2.4 million Americans who graduate from high school, 25% cannot read or write at the eighth-grade or "functionally literate" level. Most 17 year olds in school cannot summarize a newspaper article, write a job request letter, solve real life math problems, or even follow a bus schedule (Ehrlich 129). About 33% of American high school students drop out every year and after 12 weeks of summer vacation, the average American student forgets 33% of what he had learned the previous year (Trudeau 1).
A typical Japanese student spends 6 hours every night doing homework during a school year that is 60 days longer than America's (Trudeau 1). Following a regular school day 18.6% of elementary school children and 52.2% of middle school children attend Juku cramming schools bringing them home at midnight from an 18 hour work day (Weisman A8). At the age of 18, 98% voluntarily seek higher education in a university. In early adolescence, Japanese students are 2 to 3 years ahead of their American counterparts and by the age of 18, 98% of Japanese students far surpass that of Americans of the same age. It's no surprise then that a 10th grade Japanese student is envious of the leisure time enjoyed by American college sophomores, his academic counterpart"

Couldn't agree more (I don't know/think the Japanese universitary education is so much better than the US, but generally speaking the Japanese education is indeed better AFAIK)
How hard it may seem, you have to keep spending on development (which includes education). Cause if you don't, you'll face the consequences later. It's either "lose some money now" or "lose a lot of money later".