Freed Hiker Summoned For February Trial in Iran

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Kazuaki,

so you seriously argue that we shall actively assist in the assassination of a women (you said they would execute her) over charges describing a total bagatelle, in a regime that massively influences the justice and runs a known agenda to abuse justice for its own propaganda (whioch makes it an injust system not only by its laws, but its arbitrariness.

The system may be arbitrary, but the judgment in this case is correct. If we deny them this, the West are the arbitrary ones, not them.

We could also start extradicting woman that fled from iran becausue there they would be stoned for having been raped, or their families try to kill them for being not slavish enough.

I did not say that, did I.

And the European habit of not extradicting criminals wanted in the US for crimes thjat could earn them death penalty, also is unacceptable for you then, eh?

I'll say that the Death Penalty may be argued on its effectiveness merits, but is well within the Western zeitgeist's "permissible range".

In any case, IMO while one may very fairly dispute what are crimes. So no it is no problem to not extradite the women you said above, or for that matter a "political criminal" back to China.

IF, however, it is something that both moral system agree are crimes, be it murder or border violation, it is great cultural arrogance to not permit extradition because you think the punishment is too great.

[Gerald]

Three Americans accused of spying and illegally entering Iran have gone on trial in Tehran, with the proceedings being heard behind closed doors.

Sarah Shourd, Josh Fattal and Shane Bauer were arrested in 2009 as they were hiking near the Iran-Iraq border.

Ms Shourd was released on bail in September and returned to the US. She was not in court.

The trial comes at a time of tensions between the US and Iran, partly because of a row over Iran's nuclear programme.

The two men were said to have pleaded not guilty at the start of the trial, Reuters news agency said, quoting state TV.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12375575

Note: Update Record, 6 February 2011 Last updated at 15:04 GMT

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

The system may be arbitrary, but the judgment in this case is correct. If we deny them this, the West are the arbitrary ones, not them.



I did not say that, did I.



I'll say that the Death Penalty may be argued on its effectiveness merits, but is well within the Western zeitgeist's "permissible range".

In any case, IMO while one may very fairly dispute what are crimes. So no it is no problem to not extradite the women you said above, or for that matter a "political criminal" back to China.

IF, however, it is something that both moral system agree are crimes, be it murder or border violation, it is great cultural arrogance to not permit extradition because you think the punishment is too great.

They hiked. Man, come back to your senses. You should know what is to be expected of their legal system. The lawyers of the two men still there have been excluded from the first day of trial, and they have been denied access to them in the days before the trial. And you know damn well that for the Iranians this is not about law and justice, but poltical propaganda scorings.

You are defending an injust and inhumane regime that does not know independent justice and commits murder and torture against its own people, where rape victims get stoned for their offence and virgins in prison got gang-raped by prison guards so that death penalty could be executed on them, for now they were no more virgins. I give piss for such laws and moral standards, and I tell everybody right in his face that he is a barbar and a hypocritical primitive thug if he defends stuff like this.

And you Scherzkeks want to debate hairsplitting details of the mutual relation between respect for laws and justice systems...?

Man, come back to your senses. Volksgerichtshöfe do not deserve any respect and loyalty - not the past German ones, and not the present Iranian ones.

On the other hand, an iditoic pseudo-artist from germany, who declared the mass murder of 9/11 a piece of art whose stunning symbolism is second to none, got rewarded a peace award today from some German gremium. So maybe ridiculing and zynism like his and yours are en vogue for the modern present indeed, and I just live in the wrong time.

BTW, it does not matter whether or not states agree on suspects that are wanted for being extradicted actually being criminals. Eurppean states can agree that a suspect is a criminal and offender - but when he is being threatened with death penalty or torture, he nevertheless would not get extradicted: not to the Us and not to anyone else. Many states also have laws prohibiting the extradiction of own nationals, no matter their crimes. But these things are just formalities.

[gimpy117]

I don't see why we can even think the charges are anything but crazy. We find people hiking in our deserts all the time illegally. We catch them and deport them. We don't charge them as spies and threaten death.

[ETR3(SS)]

I think the real question in all of this is this. What American in their right mind knowing the current political climate not only in Iraq but also in Iran, would go hiking near the Iran-Iraq border? Personally I say leave them there and send the woman back too. Three less stupid people in the US then.

They hiked. Man, come back to your senses.

They hiked on a border where cross border shelling is a regular occurance and is littered with terrorists
Come to your senses

We don't charge them as spies and threaten death.

Its up to 10 years they are threatening isn't it.
The last case got 8 years which then was reduced to a 2 year suspended with a 5 year ban on re-entering the country.

Personally I say leave them there and send the woman back too.

Yes, not sending the woman back will just screw up any bail prospects for the next westerner who ends up as a bargaining chip.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

I don't see why we can even think the charges are anything but crazy. We find people hiking in our deserts all the time illegally. We catch them and deport them. We don't charge them as spies and threaten death.

But we could. That's the right of any sovereign nation. Just because we choose not to, does not mean that we can't nor does it mean that others can't either.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Skybird

They hiked. Man, come back to your senses. You should know what is to be expected of their legal system. The lawyers of the two men still there have been excluded from the first day of trial, and they have been denied access to them in the days before the trial. And you know damn well that for the Iranians this is not about law and justice, but poltical propaganda scorings.

That you don't care about the sanctity of your border is one thing. Don't think everyone else thinks likewise, or that your position is a fundamental right. I can easily say, without condoning any of the stuff in your Para 2, that the Iranians are well within their rights on this one.

On the other hand, an iditoic pseudo-artist from germany

When did we suddenly start discussing Germany?

BTW, it does not matter whether or not states agree on suspects that are wanted for being extradicted actually being criminals. Eurppean states can agree that a suspect is a criminal and offender - but when he is being threatened with death penalty or torture, he nevertheless would not get extradicted: not to the Us and not to anyone else.

Leaving torture aside for a moment, this is actually a form of cultural arrogance.

Many states also have laws prohibiting the extradiction of own nationals, no matter their crimes. But these things are just formalities.

And this is a demand for extraterritoriality, a remnant of imperialist thought.

[Gerald]

Sarah Shourd, will obviously not go back the other two are the subject of political maneuvering, and will be released in due course

[Skybird]

In this case I am proud to be a culturally arrogant imperalist, then - feels much better to my conscience.

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

When did we suddenly start discussing Germany?

When I compared two relativists to each other, him and you. Both of you excuse evilness, barbarism and inhumane crime, and call for it to be respected - the one claims distorted artistic meaning, the other claims distorted respect for the laws that legalise the bad guys.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Vendor

Sarah Shourd, will obviously not go back the other two are the subject of political maneuvering, and will be released in due course

I think you are right.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Vendor

Sarah Shourd, will obviously not go back the other two are the subject of political maneuvering, and will be released in due course

Originally Posted by Platapus

I think you are right.

I sincerely hope you are both right.

That you don't care about the sanctity of your border is one thing.

But he does care about the sanctity of borders, he complains that the Turks don't do enough, he moans that the greeks need help, last week he complained that the libyans wanted more funding for their detention facilities and that they were not doing enough to secure borders.
But as this topic is just Iran its muslims involved which with Skybird is the same as Terreblanche talking about blacks, any semblance of reason goes straight out the window.

[Krauter]

Without taking in the whole debacle about whether we should give her back and all that...

What the hell were they thinking!?

It'd be the same thing as a South Korean hiking near the DMZ, or an American sailing near Libyan waters.

What the hell is going through these peoples minds? Obviously if there is political tension between the two countries that would mean that that area is one where they should not be around. Bloody hell, last time I checked Iraq is still considered a warzone in my book. Why the hell are there tourists hiking in Iraq, much less near Iran, one of the most widely known countries that supports terrorism and the like.

People these days.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Krauter

Without taking in the whole debacle about whether we should give her back and all that...

What the hell were they thinking!?

It'd be the same thing as a South Korean hiking near the DMZ, or an American sailing near Libyan waters.

What the hell is going through these peoples minds? Obviously if there is political tension between the two countries that would mean that that area is one where they should not be around. Bloody hell, last time I checked Iraq is still considered a warzone in my book. Why the hell are there tourists hiking in Iraq, much less near Iran, one of the most widely known countries that supports terrorism and the like.

People these days.

What the Hell Were They Thinking!? It was precisely what they did they hitchhiked and visited countries, as they well knew that this must be avoided, to put your feet if you want to avoid trouble now the damage is done, so now all that remains is the help from the consulate or the equivalent in order to get free bill or perhaps "a lot of money"