How to get aircrafts external view and airsearch radar q

WernherVonTrapp · 02-05-11, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commandosolo2009

Hello,
Also, could you see aircraft contact on the surface search radar? or how to view the Air search radar pane, if there is one? or is it audible, wheel like, perhaps with the aircraft engine sound in?

Thank you

Early air warning radar would normally indicate the presence of aircraft via a vertical spike on the A-Scope as seen in the pic below:

I have never personally seen (or attempted to see) this in-game. I believe the advent of advanced systems with the PPI would display a blip on the screen much like the surface search radar scope. I don't know/recall if these air warning systems (w/PPI) were ever actually compact enough to place in a fleetboat which may account for the A-Scope's continued use in the subs.

commandosolo2009 · 02-05-11, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernherVonTrapp

Early air warning radar would normally indicate the presence of aircraft via a vertical spike on the A-Scope as seen in the pic below:

I have never personally seen (or attempted to see) this in-game. I believe the advent of advanced systems with the PPI would display a blip on the screen much like the surface search radar scope. I don't know/recall if these air warning systems (w/PPI) were ever actually compact enough to place in a fleetboat which may account for the A-Scope's continued use in the subs.

does this mean that both air and surface contacts show on the PPI/Ascope? are they connected? I know the fork looking radar between the shears on the outside view or maybe the bubble maker looking (circular) radar, are the air search type radars.. So, if he says "single contact", I steer the hydrophone to his bearing and nothing sounds, then I keep the radar steady on last bearing he keeps disappearing, would that constitute an air contact? or is it a bug? Thanks Wernher and SS.

WernherVonTrapp · 02-05-11, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commandosolo2009

does this mean that both air and surface contacts show on the PPI/Ascope? are they connected? I know the fork looking radar between the shears on the outside view or maybe the bubble maker looking (circular) radar, are the air search type radars.. So, if he says "single contact", I steer the hydrophone to his bearing and nothing sounds, then I keep the radar steady on last bearing he keeps disappearing, would that constitute an air contact? or is it a bug? Thanks Wernher and SS.

My apologies if I wasn't clear. The A-Scope does not have a PPI. The surface search scope is of the PPI type. I'm not sure how this translates in-game since I've never tried to view an air contact on the scopes. Later in the war (IRL), the larger warships (like BBs and CVs) had air-search radars w/PPI (Planned Position Indicators). They were larger units and I don't know if they were ever made compact enough (by war's end) for placement in a sub. I've seen (or think I've seen) some references by members who claim they have seen air-contacts on the surface search PPI and suggestions that they both might be interconnected somehow. I myself have never come across this.
There is a good possibility (if you don't get a sonar contact) that you're dealing with an air contact that just isn't close enough to spot you and therefore continues on it's way at the fringes of your radar range.

BHunterSEAL · 02-05-11, 06:55 PM

I've seen in other threads that historical air-search radars do not give bearings, but the reports you get from the radar room in-game do. That said, I know for a fact that air blips are not visible on your radar scopes in-game, because these are your surface radar cathodes.
That said, I'm wondering--how is it that real-life air search radars didn't give bearing info? Obviously, this technology existed, and I'd assume based on my understanding of radar that it would have to give a location information.

razark · 02-05-11, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BHunterSEAL

I'm wondering--how is it that real-life air search radars didn't give bearing info? Obviously, this technology existed, and I'd assume based on my understanding of radar that it would have to give a location information.

If you send out a radio pulse in all directions, and you get a return pulse, you will get range only, and not bearing information.

Notice that the SJ surface search radar antenna is a directional dish that rotates. The SD antenna is a fixed position that does not rotate. I don't know why they made an omnidirectional air search radar during the war. It may have had something to do with the size of the equipment, and the radar frequency needed to detect a small target like a plane.

Nisgeis · 02-06-11, 02:46 AM

The longer the radar waves the larger the receiver needed to get directional information. The early air search radars had large 'mattress' type ntennas that looked like a sping mattress without the padding. The antenna had to be that large to selectively receive the directional information. Early night fighter radar was also omnidirectional. They sent out a pules in all directions and they got a return (or bang as they called it). The bang from the ground was so large that it blocked out all other signals, so effectively their maximum search range was the same as their height. Early on, the new radar wasn't understood and if the target's range was increasing and they increased speed, then the Germans would also increase speed even more. It took a while to work out that they were in fact in front of the enemy and were pulling away from him. They used it because it was the first sytem to be developed and it was the only thing they had.

Only when centimetric radar was invented was it possible to have a system small enough to go in an aircraft and submarine.

If you are at sea level then you get a massive return from the sea at close range, so you can't use your set at very close ranges as the return from the sea blanks out anything near you.

General Tso · 02-06-11, 06:29 AM

Interesting stuff. If I remember correctly I believe that some U.S. subs did start to receive directional air search radars, but it wasn't until late in the war (late 44?).

I also read something else interesting about U.S. search radar. It's common knowledge that most submarines rarely used their SD radar during the war because they thought that the Japanese could detect it and immediately locate the sub. The reason they believed this was because whenever the set was turned on Japanese aircraft usually showed up in a relatively short time. It appeared that the radar was attracting enemy planes when actually the planes where there all of the time but where to far away to be spotted visually.

02-06-11, 02:46 AM	#6
Nisgeis Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,909 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 11	The longer the radar waves the larger the receiver needed to get directional information. The early air search radars had large 'mattress' type ntennas that looked like a sping mattress without the padding. The antenna had to be that large to selectively receive the directional information. Early night fighter radar was also omnidirectional. They sent out a pules in all directions and they got a return (or bang as they called it). The bang from the ground was so large that it blocked out all other signals, so effectively their maximum search range was the same as their height. Early on, the new radar wasn't understood and if the target's range was increasing and they increased speed, then the Germans would also increase speed even more. It took a while to work out that they were in fact in front of the enemy and were pulling away from him. They used it because it was the first sytem to be developed and it was the only thing they had. Only when centimetric radar was invented was it possible to have a system small enough to go in an aircraft and submarine. If you are at sea level then you get a massive return from the sea at close range, so you can't use your set at very close ranges as the return from the sea blanks out anything near you. __________________ -------------------------------- This space left intentionally blank.

02-06-11, 06:29 AM	#7
General Tso Machinist's Mate Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: U. S. of A. Posts: 129 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	Interesting stuff. If I remember correctly I believe that some U.S. subs did start to receive directional air search radars, but it wasn't until late in the war (late 44?). I also read something else interesting about U.S. search radar. It's common knowledge that most submarines rarely used their SD radar during the war because they thought that the Japanese could detect it and immediately locate the sub. The reason they believed this was because whenever the set was turned on Japanese aircraft usually showed up in a relatively short time. It appeared that the radar was attracting enemy planes when actually the planes where there all of the time but where to far away to be spotted visually. __________________ Strategic War Mod: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=179908

02-05-11, 06:55 PM	#4
BHunterSEAL Swabbie Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 12 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	I've seen in other threads that historical air-search radars do not give bearings, but the reports you get from the radar room in-game do. That said, I know for a fact that air blips are not visible on your radar scopes in-game, because these are your surface radar cathodes. That said, I'm wondering--how is it that real-life air search radars didn't give bearing info? Obviously, this technology existed, and I'd assume based on my understanding of radar that it would have to give a location information.