An example of why a public option would be nice in the United States

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And I stated that I can understand that, but it is not the Federal Government's job.

why shouldn't it be the governments job to legislate reforms for helath care that allow more Americans to get it at an affordable cost, and make sure they can't have their coverage denied?

Partisan politics aside, anything that can be done to help our people have better health at an affordable cost is good. I fell like many of the voices of dissent have sold out to big business who's interests for profit are at odds when it comes to health care.

Government can't run a cementary

Is that the school which studies lime based binders?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

why shouldn't it be the governments job to legislate reforms for helath care that allow more Americans to get it at an affordable cost, and make sure they can't have their coverage denied?

As I've said, and you seem to have ignored, is that I don't have any real objections to the idea. My point is that it is ILLEGAL for the Federal Government to do anything not specifically granted it by the Constitution. If you want to change that, advocate an Amendment. Just don't expect it to pass in your lifetime (at least in mine).

Partisan politics aside, anything that can be done to help our people have better health at an affordable cost is good. I fell like many of the voices of dissent have sold out to big business who's interests for profit are at odds when it comes to health care.

And I have no problem with that. My only argument was with your statement about the government's "job".

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Is that the school which studies lime based binders?

That post rocks!

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by yubba

The U.S Government can't run a cementary, you really want them to run your health care ?

Private companies can't run a cemetery. Do you really want them to run your health care?

http://www.chicagodefender.com/artic...ear-later.html

See I can find one extreme problem and staw-man an over-generalization too.

See how silly that form of argument is.

Every one, government, commercial, or ordinary citizens make mistakes and commit crimes. Does that mean that no one can be trusted to do anything? I don't think so.

See how silly that form of argument is.

You are very gentle.
Were you not slightly tempted along the lines of .....
"you think the government is capable of running an inter galactic conspiracy with various gods and aliens, hiding a whole planet that is going to eat the earth and brainwashing the population while building a secret telescope in one of the most inhospitable places on earth.... yet is somehow overwhelmed by the threat of running a hospital and is simply incapable of managing a health service" ?

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

As I've said, and you seem to have ignored, is that I don't have any real objections to the idea. My point is that it is ILLEGAL for the Federal Government to do anything not specifically granted it by the Constitution. If you want to change that, advocate an Amendment. Just don't expect it to pass in your lifetime (at least in mine).


And I have no problem with that. My only argument was with your statement about the government's "job".

So it's not the governments job to promote the general welfare of the people? when did that happen?

besides where does it say they can't pass a law about healthcare? I just read the constitution article over powers and limits on congress like 10 times.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Every one, government, commercial, or ordinary citizens make mistakes and commit crimes. Does that mean that no one can be trusted to do anything? I don't think so.

The problem I see here is that when a private company screws something up they go out of business. When the government screws something up they just raise our taxes to pay for it.

Of course you're right in that private companies do indeed cheat people all the time, and government is the only way to regulate that. I would rather have the Fed bring the bad ones to justice that try to run it themselves. When the government cheats people it's a lot harder to do anything about it.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

So it's not the governments job to promote the general welfare of the people? when did that happen?

That's a fair point, but health care (and welfare as we know it) weren't a part of what they intended, or they would have done it themselves.

besides where does it say they can't pass a law about healthcare? I just read the constitution article over powers and limits on congress like 10 times.

I see you chose to ignore my last statement, even though I put it in all caps. You read it "like 10 times" and you still missed the 10th Amendment?

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

"Where does it say they can't"? The point is that they were so afraid of possible abuses by the Federal Government that they very specifically said that unless the Constitution specifically says it can, then it can't. Until you understand that, you miss the whole point of what the United States was meant to be.

[yubba]

[QUOTE=Platapus;1586338]Private companies can't run a cemetery. Do you really want them to run your health care?

First you got to get all the crooks out of the equassion, it isn't that hard to reform healthcare, once you take profit off the table, they run health care to make a profit so the shareholders can make 10% a year pretty good return after 10 years the prices go through the roof. So what have you seen the U.S Government do so well ?

That's a fair point, but health care (and welfare as we know it) weren't a part of what they intended, or they would have done it themselves.

Come on Steve, very early US history so you should get this.
When did the US first set up government run medical services with health cover for the welfare of the people/state?
You might have a popint on the extension of that to all citizens but that itself is countered by the fact the country and taxpayer have to do it anyway if the extension isn't there.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Come on Steve, very early US history so you should get this.
When did the US first set up government run medical services with health cover for the welfare of the people/state?

I assume you're referring to the 1798 Act For the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen, which created a series of hospitals for that segment of workers. Yes, the Congress, which was made up partly of the Framers themselves, passed the law, and President Adams signed it. The modern Veterans Administration considers this to be their founding. Each ship's Master was ordered to collect money from the sailors to pay for it.

And Thomas Jefferson, then vice-president, was one of it supporters. I have yet to find the opinion of James Madison on this.

That's a good point, and one proponents of the modern healthcare bill uses to support it. It can be argued that the merchant marine was vital to the survival of the nation at that time, and that this made it alright. But that same congress passed the Alien and Sedition acts, making it illegal to be French, and jailing anyone who openly critcized the president. The congress and president signed it, so that must be Constitutional also.

On the other hand, lawyers, judges and congressmen live and die by the precedent, so that does somewhat validate modern support.

And don't forget that James Madison opposed the Congress and the military having chaplains payed for by public tax money. Seemingly irrelevant, but it shows that the Founders themselves were divided on many of these issues.

You might have a popint on the extension of that to all citizens but that itself is countered by the fact the country and taxpayer have to do it anyway if the extension isn't there.

As I've said, I don't oppose government-mandated or government-run health care, as I don't understand how these things work. I just oppose anything that gives the Federal Government a bigger hold on our lives.

And in that I'm a hypocrite, because I use the VA all the time.

[Growler]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And in that I'm a hypocrite, because I use the VA all the time.

Whoa. Hang on a minute.

You EARNED that privilege; I have absolutely ZERO objection to the VA helping vets. Vets have given something back to this country; read that as "Have provided a service to, on the behalf of, every American citizen."

And were paid for it, I know; but tell me why socialized health care should provide for someone who's never provided anything to the citizens of the nation? That's where I run aground, because I can't justify my tax dollars going to help someone who's done f-all for their nation.

To be honest, otherwise, I'm cool with socialized health care: earned by four years of national service of some sort. Otherwise, private industry - at private industry rates. If you aren't willing to step up and offer four years of your life in some form of national service - Park service, fisheries, military, health care - then why should the nation provide for you?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

You are very gentle.
Were you not slightly tempted along the lines of .....
"you think the government is capable of running an inter galactic conspiracy with various gods and aliens, hiding a whole planet that is going to eat the earth and brainwashing the population while building a secret telescope in one of the most inhospitable places on earth.... yet is somehow overwhelmed by the threat of running a hospital and is simply incapable of managing a health service" ?

No I was just pointing out that finding an example of government error in running a cemetery some how indicates that the government can't run a health care system. The two really don't have much to do with anything.

If you think that some how a commercial company is immune to error, the example of the private cemetery scandal was given. If you are going to exclude the government for one example, then, by your logic, you must exclude commercial companies for both have made serious errors in running a cemetery.

And I hope that by using those examples I demonstrated that both inferences are incorrect and illogical.

When it comes to entrusting health care to the government, I also have concerns. But what is the alternative? Entrusting health care to corporations? Both options are not very good, so we are forced to accept the lesser of two evils. Given the crappy choice between entrusting the government and entrusting a corporation, the government is the less risky choice in my opinion. I would rather neither be in charge, but if forced to choose one, I sure aint entrusting a corporation.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Growler

I know; but tell me why socialized health care should provide for someone who's never provided anything to the citizens of the nation? That's where I run aground, because I can't justify my tax dollars going to help someone who's done f-all for their nation.

Well how about all the Social security checks I've helped pay, even though I'm currently not on social security? do I get to be all mad because you guys are taking my money I'm paying in? I'm sorry. But I'm getting tired of all the "holier than thou" attitude where everyone who uses a social program is some kind of bloodsucking rabble...but you all deserve your cut because you are somehow better. I don't want to sound ungrateful to the military, and if you were drafted like in Vietnam or something thats special, you deserve respect...But we haven't had a draft since Vietnam, so essentially the military was your career choice, same as any other person in this nation, and you were paid off of our tax dollars to render us a service.

You also are missing the point. You act like If you pay for a socialized health care system is money wasted. Every thought that if you pay into the system, you also get the benefit if you become sick? So maybe you would grumble one day about oh it's so much and look at all these bums...but then the next day you break your leg and need to use the very same system.