Gaza aid flotilla raid: Turkey criticises Israel report

[Gerald]

It has no problems - it IS the problem, is purely rhetorical, Turkey's problem is partly about religion and human rights, which in itself is not a novelty, then there is a long list of what the country needs to control up to become a "pure" but one entry into the EU is extremely remote

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It has no problems - it IS the problem. Due to its structural design and new agenda since German reunification, changing its intention dramatically from a federation of sovereign, cooperating states, towards a federal state run by a cynical carricature of "democracy".

I know that, Sky. I've always argued against federalization of states for that reason.

The problem is that if you destroyed and rebuilt it, it would end up the same way. A federal power structure is like a universal equation; no matter what variables you plug in, it will always end up the same way. Centralization of power has only one possible outcome - power in the hands of those most inclined to wield it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I know that, Sky. I've always argued against federalization of states for that reason.

The problem is that if you destroyed and rebuilt it, it would end up the same way. A federal power structure is like a universal equation; no matter what variables you plug in, it will always end up the same way. Centralization of power has only one possible outcome - power in the hands of those most inclined to wield it.

That's why I am against unregulated economies as well, and leaving it to the market.

And what you say, is not only true for federations of states, or federal states, but one-body-states as well. Or governments of too big communal subunits within a national state.

What has led me in the past to saying that democratic principles only can avoid raising power monopoles of always the same class/elite/oligarchy and lobby rulerships, the smaller they are. They fail in this, the bigger they are.

In the end, whom the electorate votes for, is not so important. That it is given the information - instead of being manipulated and being excluded from information like it is today - and power to keep economy interest and politician's interest strictly separate, and that the single citizen can completely oversee all what happens within the communiy and realsis all conseqeunces of the one'S deeds onto all the others, and that priviliges for current rulers are not granted any decision-makers are no longer excluded from the conseqeunces of their decison so that they cannot differ between their own interest and the communal interest anymore - these things would be vital.

Ecologically, world population is too big. Politically, our states and communites are to big. They are ungovernable through democratic means by their mere size.

Much of what policies and diplomacy are about, is hiding and raising smoke screens so that the elctorate cannot see the realy deals. That'S why I support the Wikileaks idea in principle - because to me the trustworthiness of policy-making is about transparency, and free flow of information from and to everybody, everywhere. Only then decision-makers cannot form special deals anymore. Bribery and corruption can be tackled. Power abuse by elected people, and whole govenrments be avoided. Intel insiders point out that most of that business is about controlling the information available to own population. In other words: deception of the population'S own power elites' acting.

Transparency would render the whole diplomatic service useless. Because diplomacy is not about giving the other information, but hiding it from him.

Israel does what is best for its interest.

Given the dire results it gains and the counter productive achievements it wins that is highly laughable.

Should we ask Irish or hammas whats good for us.

Pardon?

I haven't seen you criticizing hammas even onece-

Thats a perception problem on your part.

don't you agree that its extremist Islamic terror organization that has no respect for international law?

So what?

Common cut this crap you must be really anti...you dig to hard to back up your false perceptions of Israel.

Thats a strange thing to say, can you point to anything false in what I have written?

If you are so concerned about Palestinians in Gaza just keep the supplies coming through Israeli ports instead of breaking blockade.

Which blockade?
Is that the "legal" one that Israel has had to repeatedly alter under protest as it found again and again to be in violation of international law?

The later it seems serves people like you better.

People like me??????
Really
It could very easily and accurately be said that it is the people who blindly support Israel and attempt to excuse everything the state does who are the people which are the real enemies of the State as they are the ones who support some rather lunatic policies and actionswhich are very harmful to the good of the state and its future viability.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It could very easily and accurately be said that it is the people who blindly support Israel and attempt to excuse everything the state does who are the people which are the real enemies of the State as they are the ones who support some rather lunatic policies and actionswhich are very harmful to the good of the state and its future viability.

Says who you?
Oh i get it...we must prove our viability to YOU first by proving we have suicidal tendencies.
Just great. No thnx
The what you might call lunatic polices are the ones that actually work around here.(not sure what you talk about tho)
I'm sure you are the expert on proper polices Israel should apply.

BW
Have you seen how PA is discredited by hammas and their friends on AL Jazira leaks.

Says who you?

Your military.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Your military.

....................?

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That's why I am against unregulated economies as well, and leaving it to the market.

I fear monopolies as much as you do, but a private monopoly still gives you the freedom to choose. There is always someone willing to fill the unsatisfied demand, notwithstanding overwhelming public demand that such a thing be brought down.

And what you say, is not only true for federations of states, or federal states, but one-body-states as well. Or governments of too big communal subunits within a national state.

I agree. This is why I argue for the empowerment of small government, and the realization of the rights of individuals. The individual is the most basic unit of any social organization, and therefore, with respect to individual rights, the only true basis for government.

What has led me in the past to saying that democratic principles only can avoid raising power monopoles of always the same class/elite/oligarchy and lobby rulerships, the smaller they are. They fail in this, the bigger they are.

Again, I agree. Everyone has the right to self-determination. I think that our system of government should reflect this, and I think a limited government best enables this principle. Every system of government conceived thus far has failed in that aspect.

In the end, whom the electorate votes for, is not so important. That it is given the information - instead of being manipulated and being excluded from information like it is today - and power to keep economy interest and politician's interest strictly separate, and that the single citizen can completely oversee all what happens within the communiy and realsis all conseqeunces of the one'S deeds onto all the others, and that priviliges for current rulers are not granted any decision-makers are no longer excluded from the conseqeunces of their decison so that they cannot differ between their own interest and the communal interest anymore - these things would be vital.

I think I'm missing some vital points of your argument, here. Please allow me some time to translate it back into German and then interpret it in English.

Ecologically, world population is too big. Politically, our states and communites are to big. They are ungovernable through democratic means by their mere size.

That's lazy thinking, Sky.

Much of what policies and diplomacy are about, is hiding and raising smoke screens so that the elctorate cannot see the realy deals. That'S why I support the Wikileaks idea in principle - because to me the trustworthiness of policy-making is about transparency, and free flow of information from and to everybody, everywhere. Only then decision-makers cannot form special deals anymore. Bribery and corruption can be tackled. Power abuse by elected people, and whole govenrments be avoided. Intel insiders point out that most of that business is about controlling the information available to own population. In other words: deception of the population'S own power elites' acting.

I can't really comment on this. I agree that public availability of information is an ultimately beneficial thing, but I also hate to see the fallen judged in such a light. I have a conflicted opinion on this.

Might I bother you to type it in German so I could re-translate it?

Transparency would render the whole diplomatic service useless. Because diplomacy is not about giving the other information, but hiding it from him

I agree, but how do you get from here to there without the creation of an international state? We are agreed upon the inefficacy of making one state out of many, so how would we ever achieve such a thing?

[VonHesse]

So Israel's internal review found that israel was in no way at fault, and that all actions were in accordance with international law... Right, and jerrod lee loughner(sp?) plead "not guilty" for the tuscon shooting yesterday. Surprised? I'm not.

[MH]

Originally Posted by VonHesse

So Israel's internal review found that israel was in no way at fault, and that all actions were in accordance with international law... Right, and jerrod lee loughner(sp?) plead "not guilty" for the tuscon shooting yesterday. Surprised? I'm not.

Two foreign observers Brig. Gen. Ken Watkin of Canada and Lord David Trimble of Northern Ireland, have both signed off on the report's conclusions.

Jerrord Lee must be then Mossad agent i guess right?

[gimpy117]

to be honest, the Muslims are going to say everything they can to inflate the claims of violence. They will of course paint the victims as "peaceful activists" who are just people trying to support the people of gaza. And maybe to some small extent thats true. But they were also trying to run a MILITARY BLOCKADE. and this food is going to a region that is shooting missiles around the place.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

I fear monopolies as much as you do, but a private monopoly still gives you the freedom to choose.

You are pulling my leg, no doubt.

Monopolies are exactly about preventing choice! Don't tell me you haven't known that!

----

Anyhow, on the topic. The antisemtites of the Turkish fundamentalistic AKP and the extremists of antisemitic, ultranationalistic and not less fundamentalistic Turkish Milli Görus movement have agreed to send a new fleet to Gaza, this time with 50 ships. Originally Milli Görus wanted to lave harbour on the day when it is holocaust remembrance day, but Erdoghan and the AKP, with which Milli Görus is competing in the upcoming elections, made them accepting that the fleet will be launched after the Turkish elections.

The fleet is a propagandistic support mission on behalf of the terrorist death enemy of Israel who wages war against Israel with the declared intention to destroy it. If I were Israel, I would kick the Turkish ambassador out (if there still is one), withdraw my ambassador from Turkey (if there still is one, I admit I do not know), and let everybody know that I would treat the fleet as an official declaration of war of Turkey against Israel. I then would lay a minebelt around the 6 mile zone offshore of Gaza and let every Turkish blockade runner run on them,

So much for the bad news. The good news is that the idea that Turkey could ever accepted into the EU becomes more and more hilarious, and that this step cannot be rationally defended anymore. You can only defend it in explicit ignorration of Turkey hostile nature - Which the left uses to do, becasedu it is deeply antisemitic itself.

And to the movies:

the second part of the Turkish hate-opera "Im Tal der Wölfe", entitled "Palästina", has been officially banned in Germany due to its explicit anti-Jewish racism and antisemitism. The first part already was like that and raised controversial reactions amongst alienated Germans (while the Turkish audience in Germany applauded it). The second part is said to be even more vitriolic and hate-dripping. One critic who seems to be related to the panel making the decision, said on radio that the also banned infamous Nazi propaganda movie "Jud Süß" is like a children's bedtime story in comparison.

....................?

Its very simple MH. What part of "your military" don't you understand?
Is it just that you are in denial of the problems they regularly highlight just like you keep on being in denial about the problems Israel faces from within?

and this food is going to a region that is shooting missiles around the place.

This food is going to a place full of people
The missiles are irrelevant. Israel has an obligation, the blockade was in violation of that obligation.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Its very simple MH. What part of "your military" don't you understand?
Is it just that you are in denial of the problems they regularly highlight just like you keep on being in denial about the problems Israel faces from within?

You try to make impression of someone well informed but when challenged its always those fuzzy answers.
BW
Im well aware of Israeli internal problems but they are not as dire as you might like them to be...just because you read Haaretz it doesn't mean that you are well informed.
It just means you red most likely but not necessarily far left opinion.
I'm leftist on many internal issues but haaretz sometimes is taking it to a whole new level with its hysteria and antagonism.
You also must be aware then that those internal problems have little to do with foreign policy since the parties involved are quite neutral on this issue-thats way its convenient to have them in coalition for left or right.

You try to make impression of someone well informed but when challenged its always those fuzzy answers.

Thats because I expect you to think yourself, I only prod you along to explore the topic. And to be fair you do tend to eventually look properly.

But.....

just because you read Haaretz it doesn't mean that you are well informed.

......You do make some rather foolish assumptions on occasion.

It just means you red most likely but not necessarily far left opinion.

Whats wrong with the Israeli settler/zionist(different flavours) and far right publications? Don't you read them too?

Though what you might find pretty handy for news views and reports from and about the Israeli military is the Israeli military
Amazing isn't it, whoda thunk the IDF would be on the web just like the government is

You also must be aware then that those internal problems have little to do with foreign policy

One problem you must understand is that without resolution distinction between foriegn and internal policies are very blurred, which in this case in hand is what makes the legality issues far more complex.