duds, duds and more duds

[CSGdesign]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

First, welcome aboard captain.

Spanks.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Dick O'Kane in its classic sence refers to a broadside attack ...

K I gathered that. I thought from what I read from the link provided by commandosolo2009 (thanks!!) that it referred to the technique of lining up the three compartments, first stern then MOT [yet to learn what exactly that is - but midship somewhere i assume] and then bow... from what you're saying it's more the name giving to firing on a target from a right-angle... which is pretty much what I'm doing now anyway.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

The firing point (i.e. at a bearing of 350 degrees) is also referred to as the wire.

Thankyou for your explanation... however to my completely new-to-this mind you've just replaced one name "the wire" with another name "the firing point". What does a "firing point" refer to. I'm totally unfamiliar with all terminology, I've just picked up the game and started playing and teaching myself the history and terminology and techniques and such to get more immersed in role-playing the game...

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Also, take a look at manual targeting using the TDC. Hitman has a classic tutorial on the subject, which will teach you the theory. Also, see gutted's stand alone Solution Solver program which will compute the a lead angle for a shot at any angle to the target's course if you input the target's course and speed accurately.

I've played with manual targeting awhile ago while I was even fresher than I am now, and I got absolutely mauled by a couple of destroyers. I'm learning other techniques (like identifying targets by sound, plotting intercept courses, that kind of thing) before re-attempting that, but I'm ready to start pretty soon so I will certainly be looking into it... I've bookmarked that page commandosolo2009 linked. Is Hitman's on that? I don't recall now while I'm editing this post.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

As for dud torpedoes, are you playing with "dud torpedoes" enabled?

Yep, I'm playing on as accurate as possible, except I've enabled external cam (purely for the sake of creating screenshots for the journal - I don't use it to evade enemies or anything like that since I enjoy the realism of using sound stations and such) and I've disabled manual targeting cuz otherwise I get rolled by a pair of sampans. Those little buggers scare me when I'm manual!

I only had a couple of dud's off the bow of a stationery tanker once... never (thankfully) during an actual attack on like a destroyer or anything. As I said I've been using only contact influence from very short ranges (1000 to 1500 yards) and they've all worked marvelously. I used the external camera initially to gauge the depth that they went to and figured out that if you set the depth to about 5 - 6 feet above the identification manual's declared draft for any particular vessel that it would impact pretty much smack bang underneath the boat, maximising damage by blasting upwards through the hull.

I was made aware of the historical depth problem by a friend of mine (one of my global moderators) on my own forum, Shilka, who knows a bit more about the game than I do and brought me up to speed quite fast on a few topics like that, and pointed me here.

Thanks very much for your kind help, I really appreciate you taking the time... it's easily the best simulator that I've ever played... I'm loving it from day 1.

[razark]

Originally Posted by CSGdesign

Thankyou for your explanation... however to my completely new-to-this mind you've just replaced one name "the wire" with another name "the firing point". What does a "firing point" refer to. I'm totally unfamiliar with all terminology, I've just picked up the game and started playing and teaching myself the history and terminology and techniques and such to get more immersed in role-playing the game...

The terminology is so much fun to learn!

Firing Point- the point at which you fire. By doing all sorts of hocus-pocus with angles and speeds and target courses, you determine what point on the map you want to fire your torpedoes from. You then get the fun task of making sure your boat arrives at this point when the target is where it is supposed to be.

The wire- the vertical line running through the periscope view. If you set up the Dick O'Kane Attack (A method developed for manual targeting that lets you ignore range), you wait until the part of the ship you want to hit is crossing the central wire in the periscope. If you have it set up, the torpedo will hit that part, allowing you to aim for engines, fuel, magazines, etc.

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by razark

The terminology is so much fun to learn!

Firing Point- the point at which you fire. By doing all sorts of hocus-pocus with angles and speeds and target courses, you determine what point on the map you want to fire your torpedoes from. You then get the fun task of making sure your boat arrives at this point when the target is where it is supposed to be.

The wire- the vertical line running through the periscope view. If you set up the Dick O'Kane Attack (A method developed for manual targeting that lets you ignore range), you wait until the part of the ship you want to hit is crossing the central wire in the periscope. If you have it set up, the torpedo will hit that part, allowing you to aim for engines, fuel, magazines, etc.

Razark is correct. If you plan on firing when the target passes a periscope reading of 350 degrees (this is the same as saying the target is at a bearing of 350 degrees when you fire), that is the firing point. Razark enlightens us by noting that if you run a length of wire from your boat until it intersects the target's course at a 350 degree bearing (i.e. the firing point) someone coined the terminology that you are firing when the target has "crossed the wire." (Can we blame Rockin Robbins for first using that term?) If you fire before the target crosses the wire you will probably miss, as the torpedo will likely cross the target's course before the target reaches the projected impact point. If you fire after the target has crosses the wire, you will probably miss, as the torpedoes will likely cross the target's course aft of its stern. if you fire when the ship crosses the wire, under the O'Kane method, you will probably hit the target at or near the projected impact point as calculated by the TDC (torpedo data computer) even though it has not been activated.

Here is a post that I authored. It is in the Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread. It gives you an idea of how the TDC computes the lead angle even though it is not activated. Note, Rockin Robbins uses a 10 degree lead angle for target's moving at speeds of 15 kts. or slower. He uses a lead angle of 20 degree for target's traveling at speeds of greater than 15 kts. If you follow his rules, you are attacking with the Dick O'Kane attack technique. He has posted a link to a video tutorial on the subject. You will understand this a lot better if you read the Dick O'Kane thread in the sticky. Dick O'Kane, by the way, was a famous WW2 Navy Sub Captain, possibly the most famous.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=167

Oh yea. There is a lot to learn here--an unbelievable amount. I knew nothing (i.e. "zero") when I started, and Robbins presented me with an award when I finally sunk a ship with auto targeting. After a few weeks of thinking I was the best shot on the forum, I read, studied and practiced Hitman's tutorial on Manual Targeting at 100 Percent Realism, and discovered I new "NOTHING." Wait until you wander into the MoBo forum and tackle aaronblood's MoBo program. The man is a genius. Or, Nisgeis's 3D TDC radar mod. And then there is the Easy Aob mod perfected by nicolas and ddrgn, a simple manual targeting fix that revolutionized the game a few years ago, followed shortly after by gutted's Solution Solver program. And finally, if you have the bent, you can navigate using the stars if you can master Celestial Navigation--something I have not been able to do despite trying. These are just a few of the many, many mods that provide "fixes" to the game. There are many skipper's who have been around quite awhile, and will answer your questions. Don't forget to use key words to search the forums, as many questions you have, such as the ones posted here, have been addressed in other posts or threads. You might want to go to the Mod forum and download period music and radio station programs from the War, so you have something to listen to as you meander around the Pacific. For kicks, I follow the SH5 realistic photo thread, as Gunfighter (see my signature below) and Otto post some incredible screen shots, some of which are photo quality, and one new skipper has recently made a short movie for You Tube where he interjected his 10 year old son as the captain of a sub on an attack run.

[Armistead]

Wish I could find the stats of the values that cause torp failures. I know their is a value for speed, angle, weather, depth, ect...The game doe's take into account the failure, but also the solves, shooting at slower speed, with some angle, ect..Still have failures, but more success. I'll try and find the chart.


Myself, I carry about 50% M10's early war, mostly because of this.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...848#5031017848

[I'm goin' down]

Hitman's tutorial link:

http://rapidshare.com/files/29805727...m_2.0.rar.html

http://files.filefront.com//;7452782;/

If you download the O'Kane practice mission, you can practice in the sunny waters off of Santa Barbara. Send a PM to Rockin Robbins if you cannot locate it. You activate it with JGSME.

I strongly suggest you watch many of the videos in the Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread. You will learn a lot.

re Hitman's tutorial. You have to work through it. When you are done, you will understand the concept of manual targeting. The Easy Aob mod simplifies the technique.

See Neal Stevens' sticky in the Mod forum for re Popular Mods, etc. has links to many mods. It is not current, but is a good starting point. It has a link to Hitman's thread re the tutorial, but I was unable to copy the link.

Armistead has been posting his mod lists in various threads recently. He is a skilled captain. His mod list is excellent and happens to overlap with mine in several respects. When you are a veteran you will probably be using many of the mods on his list.

Major mods that change the game are TMO, RFB, FOTRS, and GFO (many fixes to the stock game.) Try them all. RSRDC (Run Silent Run Deep Campaign mod) by lurker is compatible with TMO and RFB. Lurker created a mega career mod, RSRDC, that tracks the historical routes of Japanese convoys and task forces in the War. If you show up at Midway, for example, on June 4, 1942, the Japanese invasion force will be there. The routes, number and type of vessels, and timing of air attacks will be accurate as well. The same is true for other major sea battles, etc. For convoy and task force accuracy you cannot beat it. For example, if you want to hunt for the Japanese task force that Nimitz chased of off Cape Egano at the Battle of Leyete Gulf on or about June 24, 1944, you can find it, even though no mission is designed to intercept it. (I once tried to intercept the Pearl Harbor attack force by creating a mission from a campaign file lurker created as part of RSRDC. I spotted the invasion fleet at around 0400 - 0500 hrs. on 12/7/41, but it was too dark to get a fix on any vessel in the TF. They sailed right by me. So much for trying to alter history!)

Study evasion techniques, especially if you activate TMO, as the AI of the dds is superior.

[Ducimus]

Duci's version of the Indian weather rock for torpedo firing:

- If sea is calm, use magnetic. Chances of premature, very low.

- If sea is rough, use impact. Chances of premature, very high. Your better off hoping for an impact detonation.

Reason: The two pistols in game.

Impact (can explode on contact only):
- Does not have a premature failure rate based on state of the sea.
- Does have an adjustable impact dud rate.

Magnetic (can explode by magnetic influence, or contact detonation):
- Does not have an adjustable impact dud rate.
- Does have an adjustable premature rate based on state of the sea.


I'll let you figure out what i did there.

[I'm goin' down]

TMO is a masterpiece. It (i.e., you) never ceases to surprise me.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Wish I could find the stats of the values that cause torp failures. I know their is a value for speed, angle, weather, depth, ect...The game doe's take into account the failure, but also the solves, shooting at slower speed, with some angle, ect..Still have failures, but more success. I'll try and find the chart.


Myself, I carry about 50% M10's early war, mostly because of this.
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/t...848#5031017848

Good story on the link.

Now I'm thinking I should keep my S boat. I mean, after all, it's not that rusty. My crew thinks I'm nuts.



On a more serious note, I read somewhere, that the mechanical elements of the mk 6 exploder were derived from that used with the Mk 10 torpedo. This suggests, but does not prove, that at low speed, the Mk 14 should be as reliable as the Mk 10 (as far as impact detonation is concerned). Unfortunately, no diagrams or photos of the exploders were provided.

An 80% impact failure rate is not very good, by any standard. It still amazes me that the US Bureau of Ordnance, could be so obstanately stupid.

[Dogfish40]

Originally Posted by TorpX

Good story on the link.

Now I'm thinking I should keep my S boat. I mean, after all, it's not that rusty. My crew thinks I'm nuts.



On a more serious note, I read somewhere, that the mechanical elements of the mk 6 exploder were derived from that used with the Mk 10 torpedo. This suggests, but does not prove, that at low speed, the Mk 14 should be as reliable as the Mk 10 (as far as impact detonation is concerned). Unfortunately, no diagrams or photos of the exploders were provided.

An 80% impact failure rate is not very good, by any standard. It still amazes me that the US Bureau of Ordnance, could be so obstanately stupid.

Yes, you would think that at slower torp speeds, the firing pin would not have bent based on what you just said (about the exploder being based on the MK10), there must have been some other factors contributing. The fact that the Bureau of Ordnance was so afraid to test the torpedo because of fear that the technology would be spied upon, this paranoia kept them from finding the easiest of problems ei; the bent firing pins. The more we read about it the bigger this story is. I can understand failures of the magnetic exploder operation, because even the Germans gave up on it, but the firing pin getting bent and no-one at the bureau finding the problem BEFORE the torpedo was issued is a historical embarrassment. By the way, for the Skippers who don't know, it was the Sub Commanders who were responsible for finding the problem, testing it (via Admrl Lockwood) and putting in the first fixes.
It's too bad 'cause now to be accurate playing SH4 we have to put up with the Bureau's faiures some 70+ yrs later.
Good Hunting/Check yer ammo
D40

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by Dogfish40

...
It's too bad 'cause now to be accurate playing SH4 we have to put up with the Bureau's faiures some 70+ yrs later.
...
D40

Sir, you have a great sense of humor indeed!

[CptChacal]

Originally Posted by CSGdesign

Thankyou for your explanation... however to my completely new-to-this mind you've just replaced one name "the wire" with another name "the firing point". What does a "firing point" refer to. I'm totally unfamiliar with all terminology, I've just picked up the game and started playing and teaching myself the history and terminology and techniques and such to get more immersed in role-playing the game...

All this vocabulary comes from historical sources. I can only suggest reading the fleet submarine handbook online for the official terms, and books like O'Kane's "Clear the bridge!" which show how they were used by sub crews, along with some less-official terms. Such books are all over amazon.com.

[razark]

Originally Posted by CptChacal

All this vocabulary comes from historical sources. I can only suggest reading the fleet submarine handbook online for the official terms, and books like O'Kane's "Clear the bridge!" which show how they were used by sub crews, along with some less-official terms. Such books are all over amazon.com.

Here's a couple to get started on. I know I need to read through them in detail.
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attack/index.htm
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/subphrase/index.htm

Here's the list of sub documents available there, and there's quite a bit more, if you want it:
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/index.htm#sub

[CSGdesign]

Wow I can't believe that there's still so much to learn!
This game has layer upon layer of realism... it's awesome!

[razark]

Originally Posted by CSGdesign

Wow I can't believe that there's still so much to learn!

I bought this game on preorder. I think there will always be more to learn.

[Dogfish40]

Originally Posted by CSGdesign

Wow I can't believe that there's still so much to learn!
This game has layer upon layer of realism... it's awesome!

Welcome Aboard!
Yes, What makes this 'Game' so much fun are the various stages/degrees you'll go through learning. Part of the fun is the learning and I have to remind myself not to get frustated by what I don't know because half the fun is getting there. There are so many ways to play this sim that it should run a good long time before I ever get bored of it. Wait'll you see the graphics that you've got coming when you start modding you're game.
Good Hunting.
D40