Say what you will about Glenn Beck...

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

in any governed society, someone, somewhere is exerting influence and power over someone else.

In the middle ages it was the catholic priests and bishops and the pope

in today's time perhaps it is the representatives and the senators and the presidents.

the old saying "divide and conquer" comes to mind.

then ask "who is dividing us?"

whatever the answer to that question is... theres your enemy

Ah. So 'social justice', to utilize the term that you prefer, is the very same as the crusades by both intent and effect. We are besieging the new Jerusalem?

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Ah. So 'social justice', to utilize the term that you prefer, is the very same as the crusades by both intent and effect. We are besieging the new Jerusalem?

Dont misunderstand me.

in a way, all good men seek social justice.

however, in our society, there are those who appear to believe that it is the place of our federal government to impose social justice on its people.

do i give to causes which could be considered "social justice causes"?

of course i do, i wont say to which, nor will i say how much, but i do when i can afford to.

I believe though, that it should be up to the individual to do so freely, with a proud and glad heart... not forced under duress.

thats all im saying, and i think what Glenn Beck is trying to say - or at least what i took away from the video... is that it might be a more enjoyable thing to pay taxes toward social justice type programs wherein the individual parting with their money is able to see the good that it does instead of just writing a check to a cold, bureaucratic organization parting with money that is never to be seen or heard from again and in all likelihood will go to some senator's pet project.

On another note: I'm not sure i understand the folks today who attack religion.

I used to do it, but the more i open my eyes to it i begin to see that your experience with religion depends exactly upon where you go to have your experience.

I have had good experiences, and i have had bad experiences, but one thing i have learned here in the past few years is that i should try harder not to lump people into one category based on their color, or religion or their political position.

thats not always easy, sometimes is damned hard. but i try still.

its very discouraging to see some of the very people who would say things like: "Dont hate the man because he is black." or "Be more fair to our immigrants legal or illegal" or "refrain from saying things that are antisemitic"

those same people would run you down the minute you say you're a Christian or even dare mention Christianity or God... because the moment you do they assume that you want to force your religion on them, force God into government, want to hoard guns and kill people.

there isnt a two way street in these kinds of discussions, and i gave some people here too much credit to start with.

Am i a Christian?

you bet your arse

Do i love Christ?

you bet your arse

Do i cuss and drink and look at girls when they walk by and skip church virtually every sunday?

again... you bet your arse

do i think God should be part of the government or that the church should be part of the government or that everyone should be Christian.

not no but hell no.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Dont misunderstand me.

in a way, all good men seek social justice.

however, in our society, there are those who appear to believe that it is the place of our federal government to impose social justice on its people.

do i give to causes which could be considered "social justice causes"?

of course i do, i wont say to which, nor will i say how much, but i do when i can afford to.

I believe though, that it should be up to the individual to do so freely, with a proud and glad heart... not forced under duress.

thats all im saying, and i think what Glenn Beck is trying to say - or at least what i took away from the video... is that it might be a more enjoyable thing to pay taxes toward social justice type programs wherein the individual parting with their money is able to see the good that it does instead of just writing a check to a cold, bureaucratic organization parting with money that is never to be seen or heard from again and in all likelihood will go to some senator's pet project.

On another note: I'm not sure i understand the folks today who attack religion.

I used to do it, but the more i open my eyes to it i begin to see that your experience with religion depends exactly upon where you go to have your experience.

I have had good experiences, and i have had bad experiences, but one thing i have learned here in the past few years is that i should try harder not to lump people into one category based on their color, or religion or their political position.

thats not always easy, sometimes is damned hard. but i try still.

its very discouraging to see some of the very people who would say things like: "Dont hate the man because he is black." or "Be more fair to our immigrants legal or illegal" or "refrain from saying things that are antisemitic"

those same people would run you down the minute you say you're a Christian or even dare mention Christianity or God... because the moment you do they assume that you want to force your religion on them, force God into government, want to hoard guns and kill people.

there isnt a two way street in these kinds of discussions, and i gave some people here too much credit to start with.

Am i a Christian?

you bet your arse

Do i love Christ?

you bet your arse

Do i cuss and drink and look at girls when they walk by and skip church virtually every sunday?

again... you bet your arse

do i think God should be part of the government or that the church should be part of the government or that everyone should be Christian.

not no but hell no.

What I am saying is that Glenn Beck is not a fool. I do not like him. I do not agree with him. Still, he is drawing an analogy between 'social justice' and the crusades. It is not one that has anything to do with faith, gods or dogma. Rather it is one that has to do with futility. The crusades were a futile endeavor; the arbitrary capture of a city from an imaginary enemy. The Islamic world was not a threat to western Christendom, and yet western Christians were forced into support of a supposed religious crusade with the true objective of (1) eliminating an eastern Christian rival and (2) capturing a city from an imagined enemy. Beck is clearly drawing the comparison between this fruitless, and utimately destructive event and the modern democratic movement.

He is saying that progressivism is beholden to a destructive quasi-crusade in the vein of the religious crusades of old. The message is not particularly subtle.

[Oberon]

Ataturk had the right idea with religion and government IMHO.

[UnderseaLcpl]

I'm not really a fan of Beck; conservative as I may be. His moral stance offends both my Libertarian and Christian sensibilities, even though I believe that there is a God and that he sent His only Son to die for our sins. I think Mark expressed it perfectly in his post. Matt 6:1 and 2 are a couple of my favorite verses in the Bible, and exemplary of the ideals of the Christian faith. Call me an idiot if you're one of the "enlightened" that is so arrogant as to presuppose that your knowledge of the world is so comprehensive as to be able to dismiss the existence of a benevolent God, or that your morality is so superior as to be above that of those who aspire to Christian ideals. I won't judge you, nor would I embrace a religion that did for simply being a person who was created with an innate curiosity for their place in the world.

But that's neither here nor there. The real issue being brought up here is Oprah Winfrey's reluctance to pay taxes. Progressive as she is, and having come from a poor background, one would think that she would be eager to give to the common good; and for the most part, she has done so. Oprah has donated millions of dollars to charities that she found to be worthy. But even she doesn't trust the government to do what is right with her money. She just wants the government to do what she thinks is desireable with your money. I hate to say it because it sounds so..well... Beckish, but the fact of the matter is that Oprah doesn't trust you with your own money. You don't know what is right for the nation, but she does.

If any of this sounds familiar it's because it has happened before. The elite have always taken it upon themselves to pass judgement on those they consider to be beneath them for the good of the nation and, coincidentally, their own good. It never fails to amaze me how often the Democratic electorate worships the wealthy princes they elect whilst ignoring their birth priviledges and and complete lack of personal regard for the common people. They are always quick to demand that people who actually produce things surrender their wealth, but they won't ever do it themselves. Foxtrot Uniform.

[Tchocky]

High net worth individual dislikes paying taxes. Well blow me down.

[GoldenRivet]

so many people miss the point

nobody is saying the church should be in charge of social justice programs

im saying that if the government says "OK you owe $8,000 in taxes this year, and we are going to give 20 percent of that to social programs"

i think i should have the right to say

"Ok great, give all 20% to Aids research."

or

"Ok please give all 20% to programs that benefit homeless children"

as opposed to just signing a check - handing it to the tax man - and grumbling my way back home.

supposedly we can put a man on the moon, and create things like the space shuttle, or social networks as massive and sprawling as facebook and call ourselves "civilized"

BUT we cant pick the social programs our tax funds go to on an individual level???

[Tchocky]

I only want to fund the Army with this year's tax payments. I suspect witchcraft on the part of the "flying" services.

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

so many people miss the point

nobody is saying the church should be in charge of social justice programs

im saying that if the government says "OK you owe $8,000 in taxes this year, and we are going to give 20 percent of that to social programs"

i think i should have the right to say

"Ok great, give all 20% to Aids research."

or

"Ok please give all 20% to programs that benefit homeless children"

as opposed to just signing a check - handing it to the tax man - and grumbling my way back home.

supposedly we can put a man on the moon, and create things like the space shuttle, or social networks as massive and sprawling as facebook and call ourselves "civilized"

BUT we cant pick the social programs our tax funds go to on an individual level???

well then vote a senator to a person who will work for homeless children.

[gimpy117]

the idea of giving to the church instead of the government to help "social justice?" absurd.

The government pays for the roads, the cops, the fire department, national defense, schools, as well as its own "social justice programs". Or government gives oodles to the poor via aid every year. We help out in natural disasters etc.

The main problem about the church and ESPECIALLY the example of oprah trying to stand as an alternative to uncle sam helping the underprivileged in this nation is that not all of that money is spent in the US. Take oprah for example. Instead of building some school here in america...she goes to Africa and in a media frenzy builds this state of the art school in africa, while here in america schools in Detroit are literally falling apart. I remember some years ago a toilet fell through the floor in one.

Now imagine if oprah would have given that money to the DOE, or directly to schools in america?

This is just another one of these "libertarian magic dust" ideas that never work, under the impression that taxes are the devil and everything would work so much better if it was privatized and what not, thinking that responsible citizens will just freely give their money for the police etc. There was once something like that in america, fire depts were private. and if you couldn't afford the fee your house burned down.

Undersea also goes on to say that we all ought to have the government spend your money exactly the way yo want it. But we do. It's called the ballot box. If you think your money is being spent badly, elect somebody who will fight to get it spent that way. Democracy isn't some ale carte deal where you can pick and choose what parts you selfishly want for yourself.

[Harmsway!]

I'm a Christian.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Harmsway!

I'm a Christian.

careful spewing that around here

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

careful spewing that around here

I am a Christian too. I attend church every week, direct the choir and used to teach Sunday School. I have never felt threatened when stating that on SubSim. The only times I have felt threatened on this board were when I said something nice about Barack Obama or was critical of anything remotely main-stream conservative. There is an almost militant lean to the right on this forum which was not the case several years ago. GT has become a much less friendly place.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

There is an almost militant lean to the right on this forum which was not the case several years ago. GT has become a much less friendly place.

Maybe. I lurked GT long before I started posting in it. Remember the knock down drag out fights that Avon Lady used to be involved in? Those were some pretty heated times.

[mookiemookie]

I think people may be missing the point. Her tax bill is most likely pretty low. People with any substantial wealth will structure their investments and income so as to minimize their tax liability. The companies she owns are also structured to minimize their taxes paid.

She has a brand to maintain. The brand of being an approachable woman who's just like the ones who watch her at home - the kind of friend you'd invite over for coffee. She shares the same everyday trials and tribulations you do! She hates traffic (nevermind that she take a limo everywhere), she has bad hair days (nevermind that she has a team of stylists), she hates to pay her taxes...get it?

You can beat her up and call her a hypocrite all you want. But you need to realize that you've been suckered into her marketing image as much as anyone else.