Germans wrestle with multicultural identity

What does this tell us, and what conclusions can be drawn here?

The most obvious and the most telling explains why 2nd 3rd or 4th generation descendants of immigrants sometimes behave like they do.
Their parents fitted in, worked like hell, adapted to their new surroundings and tried to better themselves, but still got treated on a regular basis like excrement.
How on earth would someone expect a positive reaction from native born descendants of immigrants when they and their parents are still treated as dumb thieving foriegn scum by ignorant bigots who only deal in stupid meaningless stereotypes.

just because there is some economic crisis and the typical radicalization coming with such times there is no reason to throw understanding and common sense out of the window for the sake of simple/convenient conclusions

Well said.
Common sense does tend to go out the window very easily.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The most obvious and the most telling explains why 2nd 3rd or 4th generation descendants of immigrants sometimes behave like they do.
Their parents fitted in, worked like hell, adapted to their new surroundings and tried to better themselves, but still got treated on a regular basis like excrement.
How on earth would someone expect a positive reaction from native born descendants of immigrants when they and their parents are still treated as dumb thieving foriegn scum by ignorant bigots who only deal in stupid meaningless stereotypes.

A bit overblown. It's way more subtle, in reality.

I always had a problem with the argument that Islamic folks are incompatible with western values. That arguments gets blown out of the water by recognizing that the second generation of turkish immigrants actually did their best to integrate, and only parts of the latter generations went back to radicalization. Something must have happened there and I have a problem of blaming this development only on immigrants children. Integration always is a two way street, those that need to make the effort to integrate (Do not get me wrong, that requirement is there. Learning German and adopting the values is a precondition for integration) and those that actually appreciate and honor that effort. Both is rather missing in many circles of German society today. What came first is a matter of debate, but cause and effect always is there.

It may also have to do with the fact that Germans showed a distinct lack of national pride in the past. That has changed profoundly the last 5 years or so, but that is too short a time span to make an impact to today's problems. Who wants to join a Nation that is defined by shame and self flagellation, after all?
And who do you want to blame for this problem? IMHO the issue is way more complex then ppl wish it to be, and lacks an honest attempt to analyze and find solutions.

Then again, and given that the word "race" has had a big comeback lately even in German mainstream media I wonder how much of old attitudes just lay dormant under a big pile of PC. Germany certainly has not developed more enlightend over the last 2 decades. Maybe reunification brought back some viewpoints that were never addressed in the former East Germany. That may also have to do with the fact that especially eastern Germany, with the lowest numbers of immigrants in all of Germany, is the most xenophobic one as well. Odd, if you think about it, but the liberal and future orientated achievements of the old BRD is currently getting replaced by more general 30ies attitudes (before the Nazis came to power). That one most certainly has to do with reunification and a need to find common ground, and Weimar is the last time Germans in one country could be comfortable with themselves. This development is understandable and to be expected in such a situation, but is subtle and lacks active debate, it just happens without anybody really realizing. The huge and sudden burst of anti EU and Euro sentiments also point in that direction. Most of these attitudes are only superficially based on facts and objectivity, most is based on raw and unreflected emotions.

P.S. I just remembered another observation. In the company I worked for, I had a long debate with a guy of italian/polish background. He came to Germany at the age of 5, speaks perfect german, blonde hair, blue eyes, christian background, also lots of work ethics. At the age of 24 he already got into a meeting with Electronic Arts about a project he envisioned. He could be considered the perfect immigrant. Yet even he considers himself almost radically polish and wants to move back soon. Apparently he faced the same problems many turks experienced in their childhood, mockery for his background. This debate started a thought process that got me to today's conclusions. What folks experience in their childhood obviously has a profound effect on their world views in later ages and expecting them to behave rational would require to be rational oneself, first.

[Gerald]

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Vendor

I see what ya did tharr!

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

I see what ya did tharr!

I'm getting hungry,

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

I always had a problem with the argument that Islamic folks are incompatible with western values.

The integration of Muslims into Western society has failed, and will never occur to the extent necessary for them to function successfully in Western society. The reason is that a vast majority of them have not fulfilled all three of the criteria that are necessary for becoming members of, and feeling at home in, our non-Islamic societies:

1. Wanting to integrate
2. Being allowed to integrate
3. Being able to integrate

Firstly, we must ask ourselves: Why should Muslims want to integrate? They're sure to receive all possible welfare benefits, whether they educate themselves, work, learn our language, acknowledge Western values and mix socially with the native population, or not. Lack of integration does not involve any risk of becoming socially or culturally isolated, because there are ample opportunities to live with others in a parallel society where all share the same cultural norms as themselves.
Secondly, it is important to know that Muslim culture is dominated by extreme social and religious control. Because of the great differences (and often even incompatibilities) that exist between Western culture and the Muslim way of life, it is commonplace for members of the Muslim community to see true integration - including making use of basic human rights and freedoms to freely chose one’s clothing, sexual partners, religion, geographic location, lifestyle, etc - as being forms of religious and/or cultural apostasy.

Thirdly, integration is difficult for Muslims. The cultural and educational level of our high-tech knowledge society is very high. In the West, we are expected to regulate our own behaviour without having an aggressive God, an unpleasant Hell, all pervading social control, and aggressive male authorities to set the borders of what is and what is not acceptable and to motivate us towards constructive actions.
Integration does not mean giving up your religion, culture, ideals or principles. It means accepting that you have a positive role to play in the society you are a member of.

[Skybird]

Feuer Frei! ,

^ Very well said.

I just again would add and remind of the fact that it is not only a problem of Islamic ideology and indoctrination by it's different and supremacist values, but also - on a level beside Islam - a problem of patriarchalic social structures, and macho-cult, both of wich are helped and fostered by Islamic ideology, but not exclszuively caused by it. Even without Islam existing, they would pose problems, just maybe not on that scale as they actually do.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

The integration of Muslims into Western society has failed, and will never occur to the extent necessary for them to function successfully in Western society. The reason is that a vast majority of them have not fulfilled all three of the criteria that are necessary for becoming members of, and feeling at home in, our non-Islamic societies:

1. Wanting to integrate
2. Being allowed to integrate
3. Being able to integrate

Firstly, we must ask ourselves: Why should Muslims want to integrate? They're sure to receive all possible welfare benefits, whether they educate themselves, work, learn our language, acknowledge Western values and mix socially with the native population, or not. Lack of integration does not involve any risk of becoming socially or culturally isolated, because there are ample opportunities to live with others in a parallel society where all share the same cultural norms as themselves.
Secondly, it is important to know that Muslim culture is dominated by extreme social and religious control. Because of the great differences (and often even incompatibilities) that exist between Western culture and the Muslim way of life, it is commonplace for members of the Muslim community to see true integration - including making use of basic human rights and freedoms to freely chose one’s clothing, sexual partners, religion, geographic location, lifestyle, etc - as being forms of religious and/or cultural apostasy.

Thirdly, integration is difficult for Muslims. The cultural and educational level of our high-tech knowledge society is very high. In the West, we are expected to regulate our own behaviour without having an aggressive God, an unpleasant Hell, all pervading social control, and aggressive male authorities to set the borders of what is and what is not acceptable and to motivate us towards constructive actions.
Integration does not mean giving up your religion, culture, ideals or principles. It means accepting that you have a positive role to play in the society you are a member of.

I'd agree to you if I were convinced what you describe here are root causes, not just symptoms of a deeper problem. The debate over integration has indeed developed in the direction you explained, but it leaves some other points unanswered.

First one, as stated before, the first and second generation actually tried to integrate, despite the conditions you describe present back then as well.

So the question remains, what happened that the third and forth generations went back to Islam, and not even their parents Islam, but a radicalized and idealized form of Islam more found in the internet then in reality?

Why is it that those Germans with a Muslim background that actually managed to get a higher education and accepting German values, why is it that exactly these folks are leaving the country again?

You know I'd like to have a simple world view where a whole group of people can be described with three simple sentences and thus propper solutions as well, would make the issue a lot simpler to resolve. But those points described above above keep nagging me all the time.

Feuer frei.
Most of your arguement is pretty identical to just about every arguement put forward about practicly every group of immigrants since the beginning of history.
As such it is pretty much total bollox just like it has been throughout history, but of course Skybird likes it and thinks its "very well said" as he has this thing about blacks and muslims and arabs and africans and turks and of course germans that ain't the right sort of germans

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Feuer frei.
Most of your arguement is pretty identical to just about every arguement put forward about practicly every group of immigrants since the beginning of history.

Arguement? Or fact? Of course it's identical.
About cultural clashes...since the beginning of time, and it will always be impossible to integrate 2 cultures.

As such it is pretty much total bollox just like it has been throughout history

Aha, bollox, the fact that throughout history cross-cultural integration has always been 'seemless' and fully successful.

[Feuer Frei!]

Further to adressing the thread title, ie staying on-topic:

The Muslim community has a responsibility to ease the path to integration. The Muslim communities in Germany have a long way to go.
Among a generation of Muslims born in Europe, significant numbers have nothing but contempt and disdain for their native lands, and allegiance only to the Muslim umma and the lands of their parents’ birth. Those who continue to arrive in Europe from Muslim countries are encouraged by the isolation, self-imposed and other-abetted, of the Islamic communities in Europe to hold to the same attitudes.
Understanding radical Islamism as a form of identity
politics also explains why second and third-generation European Muslims have turned to it. First-generation immigrants have usually not made a psychological
break with the culture of their land of birth and carry traditional practices with them to their new homes. Their children, by contrast, are often contemptuous of
their parents' religiosity, and yet have not become integrated into the culture of the new society. Stuck between two cultures with which they cannot identify, they find a strong appeal to the Universalist ideology of contemporary jihadism.
Islam is a belief which focuses on expansion
and which is fundamentally opposed to "Western values.
Muslim communities must be more
vocal against extremism, and actively counter rather than tolerate radical preachers.Young European Muslims of second or third generation who feel disenfranchised in a society that does not fully accept them and thus
search for a new identity, seem to be particularly inclined to a notably radical Islam.
Imams have frequently been educated and trained
abroad and are sometimes also paid by foreign institutions like the Diyanet, the Turkish religious authority. They are often unfamiliar with the morals and customs
of their European host countries and only stay for a limited time before going back to their countries of origin. In many cases these imams remain "outsiders" with little
interest to integrate into and understand the societies of their host-countries.

Muslims not only despise western secular values as decadent, materialistic, corrupt and immoral. They do not accept the distinction between the spiritual and the temporal, the division which in Christian societies confines religion to the margins of everyday life. Instead, for Muslims the whole of human life must represent a submission to God.
This means that they feel a duty to Islamicise the values of the surrounding culture.
Are we a western culture, or are we to become something else? If the latter, who is making the decision to wipe out our national identity? Because if we take in enough people who refuse to integrate and assimilate to western values, this belief system will not survive. Liberalism will then have disappeared up its own fundament.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Gammelpreusse

First one, as stated before, the first and second generation actually tried to integrate, despite the conditions you describe present back then as well.

Did they? There were many gust workers since the 50s, from Jugoslavia, Greece, Italy, Turkey. Most Yugos, Greek and Italians sooner or later went back and never had the itnention to stay forever, and those who stayed all in all generally are well-integrated. Just the Turks came to stay forever, and one must doubt yopur claim that they tried toi integrate from beginning on. They stayed separate from beginning on, and this separatism is the reason why parallel society formed up which isolated themselves from German main society. This found its impression in fialing school education for the offsprings from these families, even more since these parents are not used to help in school-educating their kids like it is necessary, not helping them to adopt foreign customs and culture, and did not care much for what happened at sachool. Result: lower chances for school diploma, and job chances. Social decline. Result from that: growing isolationism, a group feeling of "us" against "them". "Us" means "us poor Muslim victims, the reatest and most misunderstood victims of all history", "them" means "those pig-eating hell-doomed Scheißdeutsche", "those German slutty whores" that make "so marvellous a f#ck". At the same time they are refused in their Turkish home country as well.

And then comes Mr. Islam and says: "By simply converting to my teaching or being an obedient vasall to me, you will no longer a looser, but belong to a special group of people that will rule the world and that are preferred by God that loves them, and you will be loved by all your brothers and sisters and you will be the Herren of the world to which all other humans that are infidels are inferior, and must bow their knees". Dadda-Bang! Bull's Eye! All for free! As a Muslim, all of a sudden you are somebody, from nothing to jackpot in no time!

Turks form the overwhelming majority of Muslim people in Germany. There must be reason why in Germany other foreigners try better to imntegrate and for the most are better integrated and are not overreporesented in negative statistics (education, job, crime), like Muslim groups. It is not that Germans said: "Back then we kicked the Jews, no we slap the Muslims".

Has it ever come to your mind that not only they do not wish to integrate,m but that germans have a good reason to remain sceptical of them anbd not wanting them in return? The social engineering experiment of turning the totalitarian, moncultural ideology of Islam into a tolerant, multicultural message of peaceful living togteher on the basis of equal rights not only for Islam (which constantly demands special status and special rights), but for ALL, has failed not becasue Germans slap all migrants. we have massive problems not with migrants in general, but with Muslim migrants - a majority of them. And it has become an extremely costly economical problem as well.

Why is it that those Germans with a Muslim background that actually managed to get a higher education and accepting German values, why is it that exactly these folks are leaving the country again?

You might be surprised that these are often those Muslims who were willing to integrate, were caring indeed for their kids getting good education - and who were warning the Germans time and again that they were too illusianl and too soft on not demanding the non-integrating Turks to integrate nevertheless, and sanctionise them if they do not. They tell us they we are too forgiving, and that we have a wrong, too friendly view of Islam! They see no chan ce for themselves in ermany due to the overburdened social systems and the fact that the non-integrating Muslims are those who defione the rules of how Muslim migrants behave in Germany. It is fair to say that many of those leaving Germany, not only flee from German intolerance, but flee from their own people.

BTW, we have a general brain drain and craftsmen drain in Germany, due to the bad labour market and low wages, if jobs are to be gotten. Especially doctors and craftsmen flee from Germany in significant numbers.

You know I'd like to have a simple world view where a whole group of people can be described with three simple sentences and thus propper solutions as well, would make the issue a lot simpler to resolve. But those points described above above keep nagging me all the time.

I realsie there are in diovidual exceptions from the rule. But they are not the majority, but a minority, and not even a big minority. They are not loud enough (cannot or do not wish to be) to keep those who actively refuse integration and demand special rights given to Turks and Islam in check. The active propagators of the non-integrators, also are not the majority. The majority are the many who hide and duck and stay silent and separate, passively refusing integration and relativisation of their Turkish values while living in a German cultural context. But this slent majority is a majority the activists can reliably count on - becasue by not dojng anatyhing against them the silent ones allow the activists to speak in their name and form the official "voice" of Islam in Germany. The political-Islamic panel the government has introduced two years ago, is dominated by the speakers from the Turkish national religion ministry (it'S proxy agencies in Germany), and small groups representing almost completely extremely radical groups and organisations - that do not officially speak fpor the majority of Muslims in Germany, but claim to do so. And the politicians accept, this, have banned several competent Muslim Islam-critics from the board for disturbing the illusion of peace and mutual tolerance, and swallow the lies the radicals are pouring into their ears. That way, the understanding of what Islam is and wants, gets constantly distorted and concealed. The silent majority, and the educated, integrated minority, do not much agaiunst this, if anything at all. Anbd where they do or apostates raise their voice from their ranks, warning thre Germans of trusting Islam and giving ground to it, they get bashed and witch-hunted through the village - not by Muslims, but the German left and the Greens and the Multikulti-faction and the PC brigade and the Eurocrats, and the german self-labelled pseudo-intellectual "elites", and of course the editors in the feuilletons of the newspapers.

I didn't realise sky could put so much crap in a single post.
The bugger is so confused you really almost have to pity the poor creature.
so they feel bad because they are just poor muslims and then they convert to become muslims which means they are muslims which are just poor muslims which are no longer muslims but jackpot winners who are muslims who converted from being muslims.
Hmmmmm tasty fruitcake.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I didn't realise sky could put so much crap in a single post.
The bugger is so confused you really almost have to pity the poor creature.
so they feel bad because they are just poor muslims and then they convert to become muslims which means they are muslims which are just poor muslims which are no longer muslims but jackpot winners who are muslims who converted from being muslims.
Hmmmmm tasty fruitcake.

Come on, construct your arguement to counter his, but don't attack the poster.

[Gammelpreusse]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Did they? There were many gust workers since the 50s, from Jugoslavia, Greece, Italy, Turkey. Most Yugos, Greek and Italians sooner or later went back and never had the itnention to stay forever, and those who stayed all in all generally are well-integrated. Just the Turks came to stay forever, and one must doubt yopur claim that they tried toi integrate from beginning on. They stayed separate from beginning on, and this separatism is the reason why parallel society formed up which isolated themselves from German main society. This found its impression in fialing school education for the offsprings from these families, even more since these parents are not used to help in school-educating their kids like it is necessary, not helping them to adopt foreign customs and culture, and did not care much for what happened at sachool. Result: lower chances for school diploma, and job chances. Social decline. Result from that: growing isolationism, a group feeling of "us" against "them". "Us" means "us poor Muslim victims, the reatest and most misunderstood victims of all history", "them" means "those pig-eating hell-doomed Scheißdeutsche", "those German slutty whores" that make "so marvellous a f#ck". At the same time they are refused in their Turkish home country as well.

And then comes Mr. Islam and says: "By simply converting to my teaching or being an obedient vasall to me, you will no longer a looser, but belong to a special group of people that will rule the world and that are preferred by God that loves them, and you will be loved by all your brothers and sisters and you will be the Herren of the world to which all other humans that are infidels are inferior, and must bow their knees". Dadda-Bang! Bull's Eye! All for free! As a Muslim, all of a sudden you are somebody, from nothing to jackpot in no time!

Turks form the overwhelming majority of Muslim people in Germany. There must be reason why in Germany other foreigners try better to imntegrate and for the most are better integrated and are not overreporesented in negative statistics (education, job, crime), like Muslim groups. It is not that Germans said: "Back then we kicked the Jews, no we slap the Muslims".

Has it ever come to your mind that not only they do not wish to integrate,m but that germans have a good reason to remain sceptical of them anbd not wanting them in return? The social engineering experiment of turning the totalitarian, moncultural ideology of Islam into a tolerant, multicultural message of peaceful living togteher on the basis of equal rights not only for Islam (which constantly demands special status and special rights), but for ALL, has failed not becasue Germans slap all migrants. we have massive problems not with migrants in general, but with Muslim migrants - a majority of them. And it has become an extremely costly economical problem as well.



You might be surprised that these are often those Muslims who were willing to integrate, were caring indeed for their kids getting good education - and who were warning the Germans time and again that they were too illusianl and too soft on not demanding the non-integrating Turks to integrate nevertheless, and sanctionise them if they do not. They tell us they we are too forgiving, and that we have a wrong, too friendly view of Islam! They see no chan ce for themselves in ermany due to the overburdened social systems and the fact that the non-integrating Muslims are those who defione the rules of how Muslim migrants behave in Germany. It is fair to say that many of those leaving Germany, not only flee from German intolerance, but flee from their own people.

BTW, we have a general brain drain and craftsmen drain in Germany, due to the bad labour market and low wages, if jobs are to be gotten. Especially doctors and craftsmen flee from Germany in significant numbers.



I realsie there are in diovidual exceptions from the rule. But they are not the majority, but a minority, and not even a big minority. They are not loud enough (cannot or do not wish to be) to keep those who actively refuse integration and demand special rights given to Turks and Islam in check. The active propagators of the non-integrators, also are not the majority. The majority are the many who hide and duck and stay silent and separate, passively refusing integration and relativisation of their Turkish values while living in a German cultural context. But this slent majority is a majority the activists can reliably count on - becasue by not dojng anatyhing against them the silent ones allow the activists to speak in their name and form the official "voice" of Islam in Germany. The political-Islamic panel the government has introduced two years ago, is dominated by the speakers from the Turkish national religion ministry (it'S proxy agencies in Germany), and small groups representing almost completely extremely radical groups and organisations - that do not officially speak fpor the majority of Muslims in Germany, but claim to do so. And the politicians accept, this, have banned several competent Muslim Islam-critics from the board for disturbing the illusion of peace and mutual tolerance, and swallow the lies the radicals are pouring into their ears. That way, the understanding of what Islam is and wants, gets constantly distorted and concealed. The silent majority, and the educated, integrated minority, do not much agaiunst this, if anything at all. Anbd where they do or apostates raise their voice from their ranks, warning thre Germans of trusting Islam and giving ground to it, they get bashed and witch-hunted through the village - not by Muslims, but the German left and the Greens and the Multikulti-faction and the PC brigade and the Eurocrats, and the german self-labelled pseudo-intellectual "elites", and of course the editors in the feuilletons of the newspapers.

I've read all these articles in newspapers as well, over the time bringing up all those arguments you listed here. I mention this not to discredit your post, but to make clear I am pretty much aware of all the arguments brought forward in the general debate over immigration over the time. It's not a new debate, after all. However, claiming that all Turks came to stay indefinitely without ever willing to integrate is a bit over the top, to say the least. I'd rather say each individual turks had his own indivifual reason for doing things, just like modern germans emmigrating to other countries have their very own reasons for doing this. To make this out to be a concerted effort with some kind of master plan behind it which all Turks kinda followed is bold. I'd rather say this has more to do with Anatolian patriarch structures in many parts of the folks that came here then Islam, far removed from todays problems of radical Islam. The youth here today living their prtoblematic muslim lives are completely different from the folks that came here 40 or 50 years ago.

However, by now I pretty much started to distrust medias that have a growing tendency to write what ppl want to hear to get a better shareholder value by simply repeating and copying themselves then through thorough investigation, which pretty much leaves people to judge from personal experience.
And frankly, I yet have to meet a radical muslim. Thinking about it, I met more radical germans (aka NeoNazis) then radical Muslims. I also heared of more murder and acts of violence by Neonazis then the other way around. Yet they hardly dominate the news. A little tidbit also making me a bit suspicion about the motives behind the current muslim debate. Is this really about basic human rights and their acceptance or is it about foreign influences into German society and if there is a muezzin instead of a bell, and above all scapegoats over the current economic and political system crisis? Would not be a first one given Europes history since ancient times.
Both, btw, bells and muezins are getting onto my nerves, actually and I would instantly support a ban on either. Not on cultural grounds, but simply because I like it quiet on a Sunday.
Those questions should be cleared up before going on.

This is the first time I also ever heared about numbers in regards to the radicals and not integrating turks being a majority. I do not reject it, either, but I'd like to see some hard facts here. Any sources handy? Because it certainly does not reflect personal experiences.

I should also add that I couldn't care less of being german or living by german values. If people are cool, they are cool, if people are idiots, they are idiots, that is pretty much unrelated to ethnic or cultural background. Currently living in Frankfurt as a hotspot for foreign immigration gives some first hand experiences in people no matter where they come from. Besides, I yet have to hear a single propper definition of what German actually is, and please don't come up with Prussian values here. I respect those, but hardly consider them german, the same way bavarian drinking traditions hardly are german.

The one thing were I am completed on your side is a general decline in intellectual capability in recent decades, as it is less and less about long term solution seeking but short term emotional satisfaction. It's by far not a german problem alone these days when looking at the US, the UK, France and other countries with a more liberal tradition, but that hardly makes it any better. This change of attitude pretty much dominates every topic, be it the Euro, Europe, immigration, education etc. Demanding of others to completely assimilate while oneself staying home sipping a beer quite belongs to this. That is just going from the liberal extremes of the 80ies multikulti right to the other extreme; and neither does the situation any justice. As long this is about a superficial anaylsis of how all muslims are taking advantage of the german system while not willing to integrate WITHOUT also taking into account the problematics on the German side the debate will go in circles without a solution in sight. Societies never stay staitic, there is constant change and immigration into Germany is not a new phenomenon. In fact, it is as old as this very land itself.

And that is what the debate is about, right? Solutions? You won't find those with those constant blame games, be it immigrants, intellectuals, feuilletons or whatever.

Finally. The whole debate over muslim motives, and I am not talking radical islam here, but everyday muslim, kinda implies a concious throught process on the side of this religious group in regards to immigration. However, it is more probable those folks came here and just went along the development by adjusting to the presented conditions based on their own cultural upbringing and expiriences. To counter this, this process would have to be analyzed. You know, good old science and intellectual deduction instead of emotional rants. I always thought this ability is what makes the West stand apart from most of the rest of the world. Defending enlightenment by dropping to the levels of it's attackers kinda does not make sense.