torpedoes going behind target

[sharkbit]

The basic principle is the same whether you play SH3 or SH4. The only real difference is the TDC's. That was the biggest thing I had trouble getting my head around when I first started playing SH4 after SH3. After much practice, the little light bulb has come on and I enjoy SH4 quite a bit.
I have noticed ships changing speeds but not near as often as you have said. It is frustrating but I've never read a book about the US boats in the Pacific(or any other submarines in any other theater) that there wasn't any frustration on the skipper's/kaluen's part.

I would suggest using the mission editor to set up some target practice. Set up one or two ships in the middle of nowhere, prewar so they don't panic when they see you, at a set speed. Put yourself ahead of and perpindicular to their track and practice, practice, practice.
Now you don't have to worry about speed changes, the target taking evasive manuevers, being attacked, etc.
You can change variables such as speed, range, and AOB as you wish as you gain experience.

Good luck and don't give up yet.

[Rockin Robbins]

If you'd run us through your targeting procedure step-by-step we could get you on target. I'll bet you're entering data into the TDC in the wrong order. That will cause you to miss aft of the target every time.

But before I spew out a bunch of inappropriate advice I need to know what you're doing...

[NorthBeach]

Are you making sure to hit the "Send To TDC" button TWICE when entering data?

[tmdgm]

Originally Posted by NorthBeach

Are you making sure to hit the "Send To TDC" button TWICE when entering data?

Sorry fellas for the tirade above. Needed some R+R after that last patrol.

Good idea on practice mission, however I've actually done one of the single missions several times and became quite good at hitting the same target over and over again (or so I thought). I seem to be having troubles in the campaigns.

(Whispering to NorthBeach) ...umm...you have to hit the button twice???

Here's my basic procedures when I use the stadimeter only, done this method countless times:

1) Take a range reading using stadimeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.
2) Take second range reading using stadmeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.
3) Go to speed calc and click on the button where it estimates speed.
4) Once speed (and course) is calc'd, I click send to tdc (click only once). THis is assuming the speed calc is fairly close to what I estimated on nav map. If it's not, I enter my own speed from the 3 min rule and hit send to tdc. Verify the speed updated on the left tdc window.
5) I go to angle on bow and adjust the ship to match the calc'd course on the left picture. Click send to tdc (click only once). Verify the AOB updates on the tdc window.
6) I then hit the red button to start tracking

7) As the ship gets closer, I will redo step 1 for range and sometimes double check step 5 for AOB.
8) I set torp depths
9) After final repeat of step 1 for range, I open torp doors, adjust torp angle left or right. Target is locked in sight.
10) Fire

I think that's all of em.

I only just did manual range (not stadmeter) entry once or twice. Basically the same steps above except I get the range from the nav map. I only click send to tdc once.

So at least from your comments, sounds like there may be something i'm doing wrong, which is great cuz at least there's something i can try again.

[TorpX]

I haven't used the Sh4 TDC, so I can't help much with the details of which buttons, etc. The idea by Sharkbit is a good one, and I would even suggest using a non-moving target to eliminate target speed as a variable. If you have already done this and are still having trouble more detective work is in order. Are you trying to make your approach with only two observations? In RL often 5 or more were neccessary. I would suggest making more and checking the data generated by the position keeper. It should be close to what is on your map. When you enter the data before turning on the position keeper, how much time has elapsed? Keep in mind the range, bearing, aob are changing in real time. If you take the range and bearing, then spend a minute to estimate speed from your map, before inputting that, then turn on the PK, the TDC will be using old range and bearing data. They can change a lot in a minute. In any case, I would suggest pausing the game to look over the TDC dials to see if the data inputs/outputs make sense. If they do not, try to isolate which elements are incorrect.

[tmdgm]

I usually wait at least 5 min before pushing the red button.

I always take multiple readings. The above was to illustrate the basic steps. I was always double checking with nav map and stadimeter.

[TorpX]

Are you entering range/bearing/speed/aob data quickly? (in game time - pausing the game to do calculations is ok)

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by tmdgm

Here's my basic procedures when I use the stadimeter only, done this method countless times:

1) Take a range reading using stadimeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.
2) Take second range reading using stadmeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.
3) Go to speed calc and click on the button where it estimates speed.
4) Once speed (and course) is calc'd, I click send to tdc (click only once). THis is assuming the speed calc is fairly close to what I estimated on nav map. If it's not, I enter my own speed from the 3 min rule and hit send to tdc. Verify the speed updated on the left tdc window.
5) I go to angle on bow and adjust the ship to match the calc'd course on the left picture. Click send to tdc (click only once). Verify the AOB updates on the tdc window.
6) I then hit the red button to start tracking

7) As the ship gets closer, I will redo step 1 for range and sometimes double check step 5 for AOB.
8) I set torp depths
9) After final repeat of step 1 for range, I open torp doors, adjust torp angle left or right. Target is locked in sight.
10) Fire

Oh crap! That's what I was afraid of. Time for some explanation. The torpedo data computer plots a virtual target on your map. That is the impact point of the torpedoes. If your solution is valid, you'll see that impact point plotted on your attack map, an x on the stock game or the beginning of the targeting vector on TMO and RFB. What the TDC/PK does is move that virtual target in the same direction and at the same speed as the real target, changing the TDC settings automatically over time to hit it. Understand?

If you set up the TDC and then go to your attack map (use the button from your nav map screen in stock of just press F6 in TMO). There you will be able to watch the actual target and your virtual target at the same time. They should be right on top of one another, both moving at the same speed and in the same direction. If they are not, you're wasting a torpedo.

You've been wasting a lot of torpedoes. Why? Let's see what you've done.

1) Take a range reading using stadimeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.
2) Take second range reading using stadmeter, click the send to tdc button (click only once). Verify the range updated on the left tdc window.

Let's say our real target is out there traveling north at 10 knots. You do step #1. This is a two part entry, although you don't know it. You are entering the bearing and range of your target into the TDC. In effect, you've just told the TDC where it is. So it dutifully plots the virtual target right on top of the real one. Hopefully you're waiting longer than 30 seconds between step 1 and step 2 so you can get a little accuracy on that speed measurement! It is VERY sensitive to small errors and a longer length of time between the two readings helps.

So we have our virtual position plotted on top of the real one. Remember that because the zinger comes later.

3) Go to speed calc and click on the button where it estimates speed.
4) Once speed (and course) is calc'd, I click send to tdc (click only once). THis is assuming the speed calc is fairly close to what I estimated on nav map. If it's not, I enter my own speed from the 3 min rule and hit send to tdc. Verify the speed updated on the left tdc window.

OK, now we have our speed in the TDC. How long have you taken to do the speed stuff? Let's say about 15 seconds.

5) I go to angle on bow and adjust the ship to match the calc'd course on the left picture. Click send to tdc (click only once). Verify the AOB updates on the tdc window.

Looks good, you now have the target's course in the TDC. That step also took 15 seconds. This is important! You'll see.

6) I then hit the red button to start tracking

STOP RIGHT THERE PARDNER!!!!!! Your error is now in the system. Whatever you do from here on out doesn't matter.

It's vitally important what order you enter data into the TDC. Here's what happened. First you told the TDC where the target was. Fifteen seconds later you told it what speed it was moving. Fifteen seconds later you told it what direction your target was moving. Then when you hit the red button to start the position keeper, your virtual target finally began moving. Unfortunately the real target had been moving all the time. You are aimed 30 seconds behind your target!!! Ten knots is 1000 yards in three minutes, 333.3 yards per minute, 30 seconds is a 167 yard error. Your torpedoes are headed 167 yards behind your target because that is what you targeted. If it took longer to enter your data you will miss by more.

Always turn on the PK first. Then enter the speed and AoB, then lastly the range/bearing. The instant the TDC plots the position, it will immediately (and that is important) begin moving on the course and at the speed you input. Then go to your attack map. You'll see a time right next to the targeting vector. That is your projected torpedo run. If your virtual target and the real target remain superimposed for that length of time you will hit your target. If you only fire when that is true you won't miss.

Verifying your setup with the attack map is vitally important in identifying and eliminating targeting errors. Without using the attack map, you are only guessing. With it you know you have hits on the way. I don't know why nobody else teaches the importance of the order information is fed to the TDC and when you turn on the PK, but there you can see clearly why it's important and you now have a method of calculating exactly what the magnitude of the error is.

[tmdgm]

Ahh, that could be it. Thx a bunch!!! Can't wait to give it a try.

Only thing, when you say hit PK first. Is that before the very first reading (my step 1)?

[Rockin Robbins]

It is only necessary that you turn on the PK before you do the range/bearing sighting but I always do it first so I won't forget it, as I do several attack methods that don't use the PK. When I hit it first I remember.

Yes, there are hidden stories of failure behind that advice...