Virginia federal court rules Obamacare unconstitutional

[GoldenRivet]

I have to wonder why some folks push SO hard to have the government control every solitary detail of their private lives.

i cant understand it.

[August]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

I have to wonder why some folks push SO hard to have the government control every solitary detail of their private lives.

i cant understand it.

Did the government ever deliberately sell people fake medicine? Did the government ever use paperclips instead of proper dental posts?

I'm no great supporter of government run health care but medical treatment for profit is nothing more than a perpetual rip off.

[GoldenRivet]

Different Strokes to Different Folks i guess.

I wonder what else should be not for profit?

I feel bad for those docs and nurses now.

there should be financial profit in digging a hard boiled egg out of a 480 lbs woman's anus.

(just one thing on the list of things i have known friends and family to have to do while working in the med field)

[August]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

Different Strokes to Different Folks i guess.

I wonder what else should be not for profit?

Fire fighting and policing are two things that come to mind.

[GoldenRivet]

maybe im not understanding... are you saying doctors nurses firefighters and police should not be paid for their services due to their industries operating at a perpetual loss?

somehow i dont think thats what your meaning.

[August]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

maybe im not understanding... are you saying doctors nurses firefighters and police should not be paid for their services due to their industries operating at a perpetual loss?

somehow i dont think thats what your meaning.

Where do you get the idea that not for profit means people work for free?

Let me turn your question around. Should fire fighters and policemen be able to set their own rates? Should you have to pay, say 70 thousand dollars, before the FD will come and put your house fire out? Or maybe you think it's not unreasonable to pay 100 thousand bucks before the cops will investigate who murdered your family?

Those are the type of things that people without insurance, and all too many with insurance, have to deal with before getting medical care. As long as that is the case you can't tell me our present health care system is all that great.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by August

Where do you get the idea that not for profit means people work for free?

Let me turn your question around. Should fire fighters and policemen be able to set their own rates? Should you have to pay, say 70 thousand dollars, before the FD will come and put your house fire out? Or maybe you think it's not unreasonable to pay 100 thousand bucks before the cops will investigate who murdered your family?

Those are the type of things that people without insurance, and all too many with insurance, have to deal with before getting medical care. As long as that is the case you can't tell me our present health care system is all that great.

Easy man, wasnt meaning to strike a nerve.

but yes, i think firefighters and policemen and Drs and Nurses should be paid and paid well.

I think our present tax dollars cover police and fire services well enough.

I just dont think that the mandate of Obamacare is the end all be all answer to our problems.

and i certainly dont think the government is the end all be all answer to our problems either.

a dangerous precedent we are setting in America is greater and greater government reliance.

soon, it seems, the government will be all there is and your choices will be to either a. work for the federal government b. collect welfare or c. be homeless

[August]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

and i certainly dont think the government is the end all be all answer to our problems either.

Certainly not, but nor is unbridled, take-no-prisoners capitalism. I had an ultrasound the other day, a simple 20 minute procedure run by a couple medical techs, no doctor or nothing, and it cost me and my insurance company over $2500 bucks! I'm sorry but that just ain't right.

But understand, it's not the concept of paying that I have the problem with, just the unaffordable prices now associated with it. Make health care affordable. That is the key.

Easy man, wasnt meaning to strike a nerve.

I must not be emoting properly if you thought that was striking a nerve! I'm just being the normal me.

[CaptainHaplo]

August - but you have to look at WHY that cost was so high. Malpractice insurance - the cost of the machine (which is astronimical) - not counting the money the techs made. Sure, they make a decent living - but if you think the majority of that went into their pockets your wrong.

The biggest costs in medical care are overhead - facilities and equipment. Followed closely by the costs of medication. Now - if everyone who accessed medical care PAID for it - even if it was a reasonable sum - then the costs of doing BUSINESS in health care would decrease. But between the insurance, R&D, non-payments, etc - the costs are huge. Then you have the employees - be they docs, nurses or whatnot.

When a "miracle pill" is developed - that first pill off the line may cost 10's of millions of dollars. All the ones after? A few pennies. But the business has to average that out. The cost of the MRI machine? Average over 1 Million. The business then has to figure maintenance etc - so every usage has to help cover those costs...

Fix the overhead problems, get people to actually PAY for services, not sue at the drop of a hat, etc - and medical costs would drop drastically.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by August

Where do you get the idea that not for profit means people work for free?

Let me turn your question around. Should fire fighters and policemen be able to set their own rates? Should you have to pay, say 70 thousand dollars, before the FD will come and put your house fire out? Or maybe you think it's not unreasonable to pay 100 thousand bucks before the cops will investigate who murdered your family?

Those are the type of things that people without insurance, and all too many with insurance, have to deal with before getting medical care. As long as that is the case you can't tell me our present health care system is all that great.

Some excellent points. I'm personally not against government having a hand in this sort of thing. I just believe our Federal government was created for a specific purpose, and this wasn't it. None of the other services you described are provided by the Feds. They are necessary, and in the case of police and fire departments, the government is the only way to make them work. The state and local governments do a very good job of managing those services. Perhaps medical care could be run the same way.

[August]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Fix the overhead problems, get people to actually PAY for services, not sue at the drop of a hat, etc - and medical costs would drop drastically

That sounds all well and good Hap but I have my doubts that costs would ever drop to any great degree regardless of how the system was manipulated. There are just too many people and companies in the industry trying to maximize their profits. Again this isn't about some lab tech or doctor making big coin.

As for restricting a patients ability to sue we both know that whatever scheme is enacted it will soon be used to limit damage payments to people who really do deserve that large financial judgment. Like that guy up here awhile back that had the wrong leg amputated for instance.

[August]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Perhaps medical care could be run the same way.

Maybe so. Having the Feds administer it just opens the door to more graft and misappropriation.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

August - but you have to look at WHY that cost was so high. Malpractice insurance - the cost of the machine (which is astronimical) - not counting the money the techs made. Sure, they make a decent living - but if you think the majority of that went into their pockets your wrong.

The biggest costs in medical care are overhead - facilities and equipment. Followed closely by the costs of medication. Now - if everyone who accessed medical care PAID for it - even if it was a reasonable sum - then the costs of doing BUSINESS in health care would decrease. But between the insurance, R&D, non-payments, etc - the costs are huge. Then you have the employees - be they docs, nurses or whatnot.

When a "miracle pill" is developed - that first pill off the line may cost 10's of millions of dollars. All the ones after? A few pennies. But the business has to average that out. The cost of the MRI machine? Average over 1 Million. The business then has to figure maintenance etc - so every usage has to help cover those costs...

Fix the overhead problems, get people to actually PAY for services, not sue at the drop of a hat, etc - and medical costs would drop drastically.

I don't see in your post any mention of repealing the antitrust exemption for the insurance industry. If insurance companies were forbidden from collusion, price fixing, market allocation, bid rigging, etc, don't you think that would naturally have a greater effect on lowering prices than limiting the rights of the people to seek redress in court?

If any politician had any stones at all, they'd repeal the McCarran Ferguson Act, and you'd see real insurance reform. Unfortunately, it will never happen. Corrupt political hacks in the pocket of big insurance like Ben Nelson, as well as rules that allow special interest to pour their money into political campaigns (Citizens United decision) will make any kind of real repeal and reform a pipe dream.

[Skybird]

Judge Who Ruled Health Reform Law Unconstitutional May Have Conflict of Interest

[CaptainHaplo]

Mookie - we don't often find areas to agree on, but I totally agree with you on the insurance exemption. Heck, I am all for letting companies sell nationwide instead of by state because it would help the consumer.