F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18 who's da boss thread.

[Growler]

Originally Posted by Krauter

The problem however, is that the States have no true competitors who can try to beat them with Quantity in a realistic fight (save for the PLA).

That'll do.

Estimates for US Population: 308M (Source)

Estimates for PRC military-age population: 381M (males alone) (Source)

While either is not a reliable source, you can still draw some pretty significant conclusions: the PLA may be able to field a military force comprised of more personnel than the entire population of the United States.

[Krauter]

time to brush up on my Chinese..

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Growler

That'll do.

Estimates for US Population: 308M (Source)

Estimates for PRC military-age population: 381M (males alone) (Source)

While either is not a reliable source, you can still draw some pretty significant conclusions: the PLA may be able to field a military force comprised of more personnel than the entire population of the United States.

But can they train and equip them all, or even a large portion of them?

[Krauter]

There's that, but how complicated and difficult would it be to sustain operations with a force that large?
Difficult to say the least

[Growler]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

But can they train and equip them all, or even a large portion of them?

Why bother training them?

Give 'em a sharp stick and point them - en masse - at a defender.

you couldn't even hope to nuke them fast enough.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

"Plus the South Korean military"? You mean the 500,000 South Korean army personnel?

The North Korean army is mostly junk, the North Korean navy is junk, the North Korean air force is junk. And the situation in Korea is vastly different to Vietnam.

Raptor1 : a bullet is a bullet, it doesn't have to be fired from a last generation M-16 to be able to kill someone. Even artillery guns can be "old" and yet deadly.
As for the NK navy, it is acceptable for their mission. Their navy is not designed to go out in the middle of the pacific ocean and fight it out with the US Navy.
For coastal defence its quite good, and lets not forget theor midget submarines which can be quite deadly as well.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Growler

Why bother training them?

Give 'em a sharp stick and point them - en masse - at a defender.

you couldn't even hope to nuke them fast enough.

And would they agree to do that? People don't charge in with sticks against machine guns without being terribly fanatic.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Raptor1 : a bullet is a bullet, it doesn't have to be fired from a last generation M-16 to be able to kill someone. Even artillery guns can be "old" and yet deadly.
As for the NK navy, it is acceptable for their mission. Their navy is not designed to go out in the middle of the pacific ocean and fight it out with the US Navy.
For coastal defence its quite good, and lets not forget theor midget submarines which can be quite deadly as well.

Oh, I know that, but you make it sound like there's a million North Korean troops facing some tiny force which can't possibly hold against the sheer numbers.

[Krauter]

Lets not confuse Jong-Ils DPRK with Stalins USSR.

These are different times. People may be fanatical or completely dedicated to a cause, I doubt even the basic Chinese or NK peasant would accept a pitchfork and orders "You run that way, we sit here and watch".

[Growler]

Originally Posted by Raptor1

And would they agree to do that? People don't charge in with sticks against machine guns without being terribly fanatic.

And that is a critical flaw in planning a response. Never, ever attribute a societal value of your nation to another nation's military planning.

We also have previous demonstrations of just this scenario:

They came out of the hills near Unsan, North Korea, blowing bugles in the dying light of day on 1 November 1950, throwing grenades and firing their "burp" guns at the surprised American soldiers of the 8th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division. Those who survived the initial assaults reported how shaken the spectacle of massed Chinese infantry had left them.

(Source)

[Krauter]

A chinese peasant 60 years ago is a lot different then one today. Another error is to not compare our modern society (modern in the sense of 2010, not advancement) to those of post WW2.

[Raptor1]

Originally Posted by Growler

And that is a critical flaw in planning a response. Never, ever attribute a societal value of your nation to another nation's military planning.

We also have previous demonstrations of just this scenario:

(Source)

I see no demonstration of it. The Chinese in the Korean War fought with modern weapons, not with sticks, though they did have a deficiency in heavy weapons early on. Also, the Chinese did not overwhelm their enemies by relying purely on numbers, they used some very effective tactics which are usually misrepresented as simple human waves.

[Krauter]

I believe all their tactics were based off of a human wave though no?

It'd probably be better to say their tactics were more refined then a simple bugle charge as well as a lot more sneaky. I remember reading (sorry no source ) somewhere that in the opening fazes of the Korean War when the Chinese got involved the Americans were totally un-prepared for the onslaught unleashed against them.

[Growler]

To the modern weapons angle: OK, so a little hyperbole is going a long way. Modern manufacturing - especially in China (I'm looking at you, WalMart and Target) is easy. Arming that many people wouldn't be tough; shoot, I know some Americans who could nearly do so with what's in their basements. (More hyperbole, but not much.)

My ultimate point is this: If there's a lesson from land wars in Asia, it's this - if we fight them with our rules, we lose - big.

[TLAM Strike]

Oh no the Chinese and the numbers game again?

Forces of the PLA:

Active; 1,700,000
Reserve; 800,000
Tanks: 7,500
APCs: 5,500
IFVs: 2,200
Arty: 25,000


... you know what they call 7,500 tanks in the Air Force? Targets!

The Soviets had 42,000 tanks in the 1980s and we figured it would be just about even with our 6,000 M1 Abrams.

Unless we decide to invade mainland China or fail to establish air superiority we can handle the Chinese in just about any offensive operation they could conduct regionally. And forget about cross ocean attacks, that belongs in WWII. We got OTH radars on both coasts that will see surface group long before it reaches US shores.

Now short of them sending some ICBMs in to down town San Fransisco we don't have to worry too much about China hitting us at home (even if they tried that its not a sure thing). The reverse is not true, they are rightly concerned that we got CSGs lurking in the Yellow Sea. They know if it hits the fan those planes could easily hit their capital with bombs that burn sand to glass.