Dick O'Kane lead angle question

[I'm goin' down]

I downloaded and ran the dick o'kane mission yesterday. I hit the tanker with all six shots. Shots nos. 5 and 6 were slow speed torpedoes. I assume the TDC automatically adjusts the lead angle when you switch from a fast torpedoes to a slow one? Or, when the speed of the torpedo is different do you have resend the range before firing?

Also, O'Kane, being a rule of thumb, becomes less accurate at long ranges. For example, you describe a scenario at 8 kts. where impact occurs at a bearing of 359 degrees. The lead angle is 9 degrees and firing point under O'Kane is when the target crosses the 350 degree bearing. Let's accept that it works at 1,000 yds. (practice verifies it does). It might not hit the target at 2,000 yds., since the firing point(a bearing of 350 degrees) is not when the target crosses a bearing of 351 degrees. The difference of one degree in the firing point (351 degrees [precise firing point] - 350 [Dick O'Kane firing point] = 1 degree.) when the range is 2,000 yds. rather than 1,000 yds. could result in the torpedo arriving at the impact point (359 degrees) before the target does. RR pointed this out in one his posts a long time ago, and, as I recall, the safest ranges for OKane are 800 (?) - 1,500 yds.

And, don't forget:

For the long distance shot, Rock n Shoals constant bearing method or gutted's chart diplayed above or gutted's Solution Solver program are good ways to go. The Solution Solver is pretty amazing.

And, for the angled shots, Cromwell or gutted Solution Solver program or manual targeting using the Easy Aob mod (PK activated) are tried and true techniques.

And my favorite: close your eyes, push all the buttons, and pray.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Also, O'Kane, being a rule of thumb, becomes less accurate at long ranges.....

You weren't paying attention. You are confusing a rule of thumb lead angle, which O'Kane does not do as explained above, with rule of thumb aiming bearing, which is the glory of Dick O'Kane. Yes, you pick the aiming bearing by rule of thumb. But the TDC calculates the lead angle with much greater accuracy than you could from a chart and with much more possible variability. It NEVER picks the wrong torpedo speed. It NEVER picks the wrong row unless you enter the wrong target speed.

Also, the lead angle changes depending on the aiming bearing. HUH??? Think about this. With an AoB of zero there is no lead angle at all no matter what the target speed. But lead angle is maximum when impact is at the zero bearing. Your charts can NEVER reflect the constantly changing lead angle with AoB. The TDC calculates it continuously and accurately.

Therefore if you decide not to wait and shoot when the target bears 340º, you can do that with Dick O'Kane and hit every time. With your charts you'll have to wait until he crosses the wire at 350º or just miss. What if you get distracted and don't shoot at 350? Using Dick O'Kane, you just aim up another bearing, like zero, press the send button and you'll still hit because the TDC adjusts for a new lead angle not found in ANY CHART! Dick O'Kane is MORE ACCURATE than a chart, not less because you are not using a chiseled in stone chart, you are using an analog computer which blows that chart all to Hades! It also eliminates a whole horde of human errors that come from using those charts.

So nothing that comes after your quoted statement has any validity whatever. The chart contains dozens of numbers. The TDC generates millions and millions. My money's on the TDC.

By the way, Fast-90, usable only by U-Boats, is even more flexible than Dick O'Kane because you don't need to do anything after TDC setup but point the periscope at the target, no matter what the bearing and shoot. You'll hit your mark, With Dick O'Kane in a fleet boat you have to press the send bearing/range button to send the new aiming bearing to the TDC. For maximum accuracy with Dick O'Kane you should also adjust the AoB, but the U-Boat's active periscope/TDC link automatically adjusts the AoB also!

[I'm goin' down]

Very interesting, Herr Doctor. So, why am I screwing around with other methods when the range is 9K or less. (9K seems too far, so let's settle on 4K.) Regardless of the position of the target vis a via my boat, O'Kane yields accurate lead angle that should produce an impact, assuming I have the course and speed of the target and set range to max distance. Admittedly, a broadside impact point yields the largest target profile, but the theory should apply to angled (i.e. smaller) profiles as well.

I may be experiencing a 2001 "dawn of man" moment.

[Rockin Robbins]

Exactly! O'Kane is the closest approximation we can get to the flexibility of the U-Boat attack at 90º to the target track. With it you can accurately shoot at any time before or after the only valid aiming bearing for a chart attack. This flexibility leads to more shots taken, therefore it leads to more hits per patrol. A shot not taken never hits its mark.

Remember that the Dick O'Kane instructional video is a BLOWN ATTACK. I was busily running my big mouth as the target blew past the aiming bearing. No matter! Without even updating the AoB (because there just wasn't any time) I just aimed up the zero bearing, pressed send range/bearing and shot anyway. Because the TDC automatically calculated the correct new lead angle, which was no longer 9º, I still sunk my target, salvaging both the attack and the video.

[Dignan]

Good stuff here. Thanks for the explanation/answer to taukarrie's question, RR.

I've got a follow on question of my own. I'm familiar with the Dick O'Kane method and have used it with great success. I recently read the tutorial for the "constant bearing" method. Basically, my question is "how is the constant bearing method different from the Dick O method?"

I will attempt to answer my own question to help myself understand the difference but if any of the experts could weigh in I would also appreciate that.

My perception is that CB differs from DO in the two following ways:

1. In constant bearing you are not limited to a 90 degree angle on the target track. You can attack from any angle.
2. In constant bearing method you must input a fairly accurate range to target track, unlike in DO method.

Are these the only two differences?

[Rockin Robbins]

Well actually "constant bearing" is not a single type of attack but a family of attack methods where you aim the periscope at a chosen aiming bearing and shoot as the target crosses the wire. It differs from other attack methods because they use the position keeper to continuously update target position. Therefore the TDC is continuously changing the bearing the torpedo will follow to the target.

In constant bearing techniques the bearing the torpedo will follow or the aiming bearing is held constant and you wait for the target to cross the aiming point.

Let's say we were shooting a shotgun. You can visualize that better. One way to shoot is to sweep the gun across the sky in front of the innocent cute duckie at the correct lead angle. You can shoot any time during the sweep and hit the target. That is conventional shooting.

But another way is to visualize the right lead angle, point the gun at a spot in a sky the duck must cross. You keep the gun stationary and time the shot for when the duck is at the correct lead angle. That's a constant bearing attack. All ducks are birds but all birds are not ducks. Dick O'Kane is just one kind of constant bearing attack.

Now with a constant bearing attack we have two choices. We can arbitrarily pick an aiming bearing and let our TDC choose the lead angle, as in the Dick O'Kane and John P Cromwell methods. Or we can arbitrarily choose our impact point and calculate backward to find our proper aiming bearing, using a chart, slide rule or computer, as in the vector analysis attack or gutted's 90º attack chart. Those two choices define the differences between varied methods of constant bearing attack.

If someone is taking a specific attack method and trying to name it "constant bearing" they need to change the name of the attack. "Constant bearing" already has a precise definition and has had it for over 70 years.

Dick O'Kane, John P Cromwell, vector analysis and Fast-90 are all constant bearing attacks. The first three can be used in any submarine, the last only with a U-Boat.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Well actually "constant bearing" is not a single type of attack but a family of attack methods where you aim the periscope at a chosen aiming bearing and shoot as the target crosses the wire. It differs from other attack methods because they use the position keeper to continuously update target position. Therefore the TDC is continuously changing the bearing the torpedo will follow to the target.

In constant bearing techniques the bearing the torpedo will follow or the aiming bearing is held constant and you wait for the target to cross the aiming point.

Let's say we were shooting a shotgun. You can visualize that better. One way to shoot is to sweep the gun across the sky in front of the innocent cute duckie at the correct lead angle. You can shoot any time during the sweep and hit the target. That is conventional shooting.

But another way is to visualize the right lead angle, point the gun at a spot in a sky the duck must cross. You keep the gun stationary and shoot when the duck is at the correct lead angle. That's a constant bearing attack. All ducks are birds but all birds are not ducks. Dick O'Kane is just one kind of constant bearing attack.

If someone is taking a specific attack method and trying to name it "constant bearing" they need to change the name of the attack. "Constant bearing" already has a precise definition and has had it for over 70 years.

Dick O'Kane, John P Cromwell, vector analysis and Fast-90 are all constant bearing attacks. The first three can be used in any submarine, the last only with a U-Boat.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. The tutorial I am referring to is here. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...47&postcount=1

What makes this different from the Dick O'Kane attack? This tutorial implies that a 90 degree attack angle is not necessary. So my question is what makes this work?....is it the fact that you are entering an accurate range in the TDC where in O'Kane you don't have to???