Time to regulate Bible and samurai sword ownership

[Kongo Otto]

Originally Posted by August

People kill other people without a reason all the time. Religion might provide a handy excuse but if that weren't available any other excuse would do just as well.

As the song says: "I once killed a man in Reno just to watch him die".

Gret song btw!

but if you kill a guy in Reno just to watch him die, the reason was "to watch him die"
So yes, there is always a reason.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by Armistead

About 400 AD, the Romans realized they couldn't defeat the Christian movement, so rather than fight em, join them. Before this the church as a whole didn't believe in hell or torture. As the church and government joined they needed tools to control the masses, thus the tools of fear and guilt became common doctrine. Along comes men peod like Dante and whips hellfire and torture into doctrine. The church now backed by the government became agents of torture, after all, if God could torture for eternity, why not man in his name. Sadly torture in God's name became a mainstay until secular law put it aside in most parts of the world. I myself couldn't accept a God that would torture the mass of his creation for eternity. As bad as Hitler is, man has made God a worse monster.

Nothing can be worse that a man claiming God with a bible in one hand and a sword in the other, just ask the indians...

One thing I fear is all these that say they want God back in government. Could it be they want to bring back the fear and guilt tactics of the past.

I think some would if they could. This is what most atheist fear. I don't declare myself to be one, but I certainly understand their fear.

No no yes the Catholic church doctrine has shifted some aspect of the early church teaching that has its effect until today even in non Catholic denominations. But Heaven and hell teaching are there in the scriptures. Of course it's up to the person whether to believe the scriptures or not.

If you would like to know what changed, the bible never teaches immediate life after death nor does it teach immediate judgment after death. Well there's the story of the rich man and Lazarus but against that the whole other verses written by many different people. The bible is NOT perfect I've noted one obvious rather critical fault in it that may have been caused by unintentional mis-interpretation caused by a missing punctuation. But the will to correct it is not there as it's a convenient verse which back the now common Christian doctrine of immediate judgment after death and that of immediate life after death.

Truth is no one can represent Jesus but what is important is that God doesn't NEED anyone to represent him. As a Catholic I've seen lesser educated people who worship his religion than actually trying to grow his spirituality. Spirituality doesn't exist in rituals or long worded or even beautiful prayers but spirituality lies in the heart intention and action of the person. It's about a whole attitude towards the realization of God and what the realization brings to how he treats his fellow man.

Again because of man's fallibility religion or rather faith in God are abused from time to time resulting in fundamentalism and evil committed in the name of God.

What people need to realize is that many people who often call themselves belonging to certain religious group don't always know what is required of them from their holy book( or scriptures).

If the whole world turned into Christians that would only mean that hell would be populated with Christian sinners and so too with any other religions.

Religious people are not always spiritual people. Spiritual growth is a personal thing which doesn't depend on one's religion or his religious commitment!

Originally Posted by Penguin

Short answer: disrespect/animosity could root in 100's of years of oppression and persecution of atheists...

longer:
...........

so I am cool with you , your beliefes don't mind me, just don't try to take my freedom away!

...and atheism is not just another belief, it is the lack of belief

If atheist hated the history of persecution and oppression why would they take it on the people? It was probably the Catholic church who did those oppression and persecution.

I don't mind your atheism as well not even in the slightest. I'm not even going to try to convince you to convert you.

As for atheism being a belief well I have a perfectly good reason to saying that. Yes atheism is a lack of belief that is true but it is a belief of lack of belief. But the people who could understand this are the people who know God exists. So that would probably exclude many religious people(and no I don't hate religious people either, I'm simply telling a fact). In simple word a positive belief is confirmed when that belief is truly known to be true even on the personal level while a belief in the negative cannot be justified at all and can only be proven wrong when the contrary is known to that person even while only on the personal level.

Originally Posted by DarkFish

Well there you are doing exactly what you accuse atheists of: being less respectful towards differing belief systems. Towards my belief system (Germanic Paganism). Yet I don't give a damn. So why do you christians often do? TBH, I barely hear any atheists complaining about christians, while I quite often hear you christians complain about atheists.

And only few atheists hate religious people. At most, they hate the religion, not the people.

And with good reason. I hate your god. Yes, I hate him with a passion. For all that has been done in his name. For the way he screwed up the life of my people for centuries.

As the Frisian king Radboud once said, I'd rather spend eternity in hell with my friends, than in heaven with my enemies.
And like this king, I will not be a traitor to my people. A traitor to my belief. A traitor to what I feel is right. And if that costs me eternity in hell, so be it.

If your god chooses to judge people on their beliefs rather than on their deeds (and for what I know of the bible, he does), he's not worth being called a god. He'd just be another selfish megalomanic massmurderer. Hitler or Stalin, anyone?


Like the tolerance your god teaches? Don't you think it's slightly hypocritical that a christian like you accuses other "beliefs" of having no tolerance?

Unfortunately the aforementioned king Radboud was unsuccessful in his attempts to prevent christianism from infecting Frisia. But the Pagans combated christianism in a civil way. Nothing like the violence with which christians often attacked other beliefs.

You've suppressed people for ages. So if you christians feel attacked by atheists, it's only what you rightfully deserve.

Heilir Æsir! Heilar Asýnjur!

That's a lot assumptions you have about God. Or did those come from personal acquaintance with God? Just because some people believe God is this or that or just because you believe that God is this or that it doesn't make it true though it might be perceived true even by the whole world.

I also didn't mean I disrespect people who believe in other belief aside from monotheistic ones. I truly mean it when I said that I don't hate people with any other belief. Well maybe except satanism at least the real one.

Before you think that Christians desrve to be attacked you need to differentiate between
1. The religious body: the physical organizational church
2. The scriptures or the basic teaching. Much akin to the constitution of a state
3. The doctrines which supposedly is based on the scriptures but more actually made by the religious body claiming authority
4. The people who believe in the scriptures and or
5. The people who believe in the doctrines and or
6. The people who worship God and or
7. The people who worship their religion and or
8. People who have been mislead to commit violence in the name of God.

Generalization and labeling is the root of all misunderstanding.
Again I'd like to repeat that Religious people are not always spiritual people and that religion saves no one yes no one and

that personal spiritual growth is the rights of every man who wish for it and thus should be given freedom to pursue it in ways that he sees fit as long as he's not endangering other people.

To share my opinion majority of mankind are very much akin to a 2 year old when it comes to spirituality. Trying to teach majority of people of spirituality and God is like trying to teach a 2 year old to the concept of biology. Most 2 year old would just resent it and the attempt to teach him or her too.
But the catch is if our intellectual development comes at the price of our spiritual growth then you can guarantee that we will bring a lot of suffering to our fellow man and even end up annihilating each other. This is not an exaggeration. People will simply regress without spiritual growth and become dwarfed and selfish and in return bringing chaos which is an unsustainable level of existence. All that would happen simply because we don't understand ourselves thus we don't understand our fellow men and all that is because we don't put the effort to know God and to grow spiritually. Because we never bothered to look INSIDE for answers to our most crucial and fundamental questions. Because we convinced ourselves the answers to everything must have laid outside of us or in things that never held the answers in the first place or that it never occurred to us to even begin to look inside so that we know much but not ourselves. Don't you know so many evils IF NOT ALL thrive because of ignorance and selfishness and lack of knowledge? In another perspective we may be deserving all the suffering in this world and even responsible for them to a degree personally and wholly collectively!

yes we may be responsible for Hitler or for Stalin or for any other people that proved to be a monster in their time for many other people.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by August

Bibles don't kill people.
People kill people.

People whose faith must be suspect if they believe their omnipotent God needs their help so badly. That seems an ultimate conceit to my eye, but is more likely a manefestation of mental illness.

[Armistead]

Castout

I understand why you feel the way you do. I once had solid beliefs in the doctrine of the Baptist as you feel towards the catholic church.

My studies are years of greek from a historical and cultural perspective. The early church for 400 years actually taught universal salvation for all man, that the work of the cross would reconcile all of God's creation back to him.... There were six large schools of religion, 4 taught universal salvation, one soul death and one hellfire. The one that taught hellfire was full of pagan leaders.

Anyone can study the history of the church and see it adopted torture when it adopted eternal hell. Most of the doctrines men accept today were written by early Popes that tortured men at will, so they would be suspect to me on that alone.

If God exist I would believe based on scripture and logic that he would redeem his creation, all of it. If it were his goal to torture most of mankind for eternity, I would find that a deranged God and couldn't serve him. Most today that come to God do so out of fear. It's like holding a gun to someones head and say "tell me you love me or I shoot"...people will do anything out of fear.

God would have to be responsible for creating good and evil, both are his and both are his to reconcile. However, many find it easier to blame fate on the random good and evil that happens to man. It seems reasonable to say fate let a child get raped and murdered than God allowed it to happen.

[TarJak]

That's the same for any obsession. Balance is what keeps you sane.

[Castout]

Actually much of the concept of hell is written according to the book of revelation and as far as that it's biblical and Jesus gave mention of it too(the burning of dead branches). But hell and heaven solely depend on God's judgment instead anybody's.

However the church changed the teaching of resurrection to immediate resurrection and immediate judgment and adds to the confusion which surprisingly draws only little protest. Bible scholars however would admit that the Catholic doctrines of these(which are man inspired teachings) don't reflect that of the bible or scriptures. Fascinatingly the bible is very consistent in its view of death and resurrection and judgment taking into the fact that it's written by many different men in different period of time that spans more than hundreds of years neither of which knew about the other writing. The Catholic church also teaches about physical resurrection which is TOTALLY UNBIBLICAL. Yes I believe Jesus was raised and that his body was missing(I know Jesus is living and that while man he was sinless but I believe He was raised wholly by God from among the dead including that of His body) but that doesn't change the fact that St. Paul clearly wrote that there IS NOT going to be a physical resurrection. Thus I came to the conclusion that man inspired doctrines have indeed twisted the original scripture teaching and change the concept of after life to that of the Greek one!

As for eternity in hell well most people judge God as they judge another man but forgetting God is not a man. The main trait of God is that He is holy which is the source of his authority over all things living and non living, seen and unseen. A holy God WILL NEVER EVER DO something which is NOT HOLY or UNFAIR or evil but the holiness which is God's throne is also what made Him obligated to act as He is, a holy God that judge all men. We cannot blame God for anything not because we should not but because there will be nothing to blame unless we're being conceited and making a fool of ourselves but the universe will prove that God is blameless! Because if there was a spot in God that moment God would cease being God and God would have lost his authority over all things!

The other characteristic of God that I've personally known is that of loving and merciful. The first made God to love (literally love) even men who do not know Him because He holds each person very very intimately. So God could love even a person who didn't know him at all and who involved himself in the occult and who is largely a small person in society. The latter trait enable God to forgive sins. And God even sometimes forgives a person whole sins without being asked! It really doesn't get better than this! And that when God forgives a man he will be compelled to forgive his fellow men also without being asked simply because that would be the very least that he could repay the grace that he had been given or the only way to show his gratitude. Not I'm not preaching or telling you a fairy tale but I'm telling you my EXPERIENCE and insight and not merely my beliefs. Then again people who don't understand will probably not able to appreciate all this. My final word is that God is personal and He will deal with each person personally as such God can only be experienced on the personal level. Either one knows God or He doesn't. Writings will not bring any good unless it is taken with faith. The only way to experience God is to know God (no matter how little.) and to see the scriptures becoming alive in one's life and thus able to know the truth in his faith. Then again there's the problem you don't come to God unless God comes to you first.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by TarJak

That's the same for any obsession. Balance is what keeps you sane.

Knowing what is right and what is wrong is what keeps you sane.

The most balanced person in mental prison is probably still too insane for the sane.

[Armistead]

If God didn't want evil on the earth, if you believe the literal story, when Satan fell why didn't God destroy him? Seems to me he would've at least taken his power away, but what did God do with him, he gave him dominion over the earth. Then that dang tree, they never ate of it until guess who showed up with enough power to convinve them to eat. Why put a tree full of beautiful fruit in front of someone and tell them not to eat it? Why place a evil creature on earth beside man to start with. I would've destroyed Satan or at least taken his power away. Why not put him on Mars instead of Earth?...seemd God had a job for the old devil.

When you have all power and all knowledge of all things for all time over all your creation, that would make you somewhat responsible for it...

The only place in the bible of a possible lake of fire is in Rev, but what is it.
Fire in the bible was a tool to define. Take the world torment, in the greek a torment was a stone used to beat something into perfection, not punishment. Sulfer and Brimstone, both cleansing agents. Our english words change all of these to evil things.

Regardless of the possibility of what God is or isn't, man created a God to use for their benefit to control people out of guilt and fear, then call it love.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Castout

That's a lot assumptions you have about God. Or did those come from personal acquaintance with God? Just because some people believe God is this or that or just because you believe that God is this or that it doesn't make it true though it might be perceived true even by the whole world.

The only assumption I made about the christian god is that he judges people (partly) according to their beliefs (see the 10 commandments for example).
You obviously know the christian religion a lot better than I do, so if I'm wrong here, please say so.

I also didn't mean I disrespect people who believe in other belief aside from monotheistic ones. I truly mean it when I said that I don't hate people with any other belief. Well maybe except satanism at least the real one.

And neither do I disrespect people of other beliefs. I only disrespect the religions itself.

Also, you might want to look into what satanism actually is. It seems that you've got a completely wrong image of it.

Before you think that Christians desrve to be attacked you need to differentiate between
1. The religious body: the physical organizational church
2. The scriptures or the basic teaching. Much akin to the constitution of a state
3. The doctrines which supposedly is based on the scriptures but more actually made by the religious body claiming authority
4. The people who believe in the scriptures and or
5. The people who believe in the doctrines and or
6. The people who worship God and or
7. The people who worship their religion and or
8. People who have been mislead to commit violence in the name of God.

Maybe I should have made this more clear. I'm saying that christianism (so the religion, not the people) deserves to be attacked. So in your list that's just 1, 2 and 3 (and 8 but for a different reason).

But the catch is if our intellectual development comes at the price of our spiritual growth then you can guarantee that we will bring a lot of suffering to our fellow man and even end up annihilating each other. This is not an exaggeration. People will simply regress without spiritual growth and become dwarfed and selfish and in return bringing chaos which is an unsustainable level of existence.

This is a part where I couldn't disagree more with you. Atheists aren't dwarfed and selfish. They aren't any less friendly than the average religious person. Letting other people suffer doesn't depend on spiritual development, but on social development.

All that would happen simply because we don't understand ourselves thus we don't understand our fellow men and all that is because we don't put the effort to know God and to grow spiritually. Because we never bothered to look INSIDE for answers to our most crucial and fundamental questions.

Euhm, and what about science? It makes you understand yourself, others and the world around you better than any god ever could.

Because we convinced ourselves the answers to everything must have laid outside of us or in things that never held the answers in the first place or that it never occurred to us to even begin to look inside so that we know much but not ourselves. Don't you know so many evils IF NOT ALL thrive because of ignorance and selfishness and lack of knowledge? In another perspective we may be deserving all the suffering in this world and even responsible for them to a degree personally and wholly collectively!

I agree with you that we deserve suffering and that we are responsible for it. I don't see however what religion has to do with it.
I also agree with you that many evils thrive because of ignorance (lack of knowledge) and selfishness. But even without those, there would still be evil.

yes we may be responsible for Hitler or for Stalin or for any other people that proved to be a monster in their time for many other people.

I was comparing god to Hitler based on the assumption that god judges people based on their belief. If there's a god that puts people in hell because they are not christian, how is it different from Hitler who put people in "hell on earth" because they were jewish?
Again, if I'm wrong here, please correct me and I'll happily retract my statement.

[August]

I believe that people do need spirituality. It's important to believe in something greater than oneself.

Organized religions are attempts to provide a path to achieving that spirituality. Unfortunately they do it by providing a set of societal rules and procedures to follow making them handy frameworks for controlling populations. Potentates have been using that vehicle for thousands of years with great success (both good and bad).

The essential flaw though of all organized religions is the fact that they are trying to describe a concept that is not and may never be within mans ability to understand.

God is not definable, he cannot be categorized or dissected and that can be maddening for those who believe they need a rule book to follow in order to achieve the spirituality they so desperately desire.

[NeonSamurai]

Castout I would strongly suggest you do some research into the origins of your religion, and the history of text you refer to as scripture. You seem to have this notion that the bible is a whole and unchanging entity; it is not so, and has changed quite a bit, especially during the inception of the roman catholic church where most of the old scriptures from before were destroyed for being heretical according to the catholic church (which was trying to set up a power base). We know about some of these lost scriptures thanks to finds like the dead sea scrolls. Also a lot of teachings espoused by christians are not found in scripture, but were literally invented by the various saints that came later (like birth control, sexual pleasure as sin, etc) and were worked into what you call scripture today. You may also find this interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Q

I have to say, I do find it very difficult not to ridicule people who believe that the bible is the absolute word of god, unchanging and perfect. Anyone who has studied christian theology seriously and open-mindedly has to draw the inescapable conclusion that this is a entirely human book, full conundrums, faulty logic, inconsistencies, hypocrisy, conflicting statements, etcetera ad nausium. This doesn't mean that there is nothing worth listening to in this text and possibly adopting, just that it is imperfect, as all human creations are (including the gods we create to worship). There may well be a creator (god), but if there is, we can never hope of even beginning to grasp what such an entity would be.

Btw the concept of God having a sex is equally funny imho, all this he and his stuff. :P

Religious people are not always spiritual people. Spiritual growth is a personal thing which doesn't depend on one's religion or his religious commitment!

It is nessassary to disagree with everyone who would control your Spirit. This is the essance of freedom.

Freedom:- the right to say and think as you like, but without being controlled.

Unfortunately for the world, Edward Bernayes in 1920s USA discovered that to decieve rather than lie is an acceptable condition for for treating the popular masses. For most of us decerning truth these day's is very hard as deception and lie are by there nature are Spiritual matters.

The snake bit is deadly , but it's not the actual bit that is kills you.

This is why we need Spiritual guidance in our lives, Churchill and Roosevelt understood this concept, they both had the servant heart, the abilty to put personal ambitions to one side for their Country, it made these men giants among there peers and able to stand when others fell.

All Religion is of man, fullstop. Freedom is Spirit in action and in the heart of every believer that has ever lived.

sid, "creator of fine slots"

People whose faith must be suspect if they believe their omnipotent God needs their help so badly. That seems an ultimate conceit to my eye, but is more likely a manefestation of mental illness.

God is Spirit, Jesus.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by August

I believe that people do need spirituality. It's important to believe in something greater than oneself.

Why?
I am genuinely curious as to why you think that.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

Why?
I am genuinely curious as to why you think that.

I too would be interested in this. Also why would believing in something greater than yourself equate to spirituality? Are the two really the same?