Why I love America

the_tyrant · 11-12-10, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Sure they do. However, I don't know about you, but personally, I draw the line where Chinese prosperity is taking jobs and industry away from America. China, is after all, a foreign country, and not the land that I love.

Even if I offered you the job, you would refuse
No health-care, no pension, a salary of $1 an hour, no safely, 10 hour work day

Even being a paper boy is better

SteamWake · 11-12-10, 10:49 AM

A little off topic but...

I listened to a news report yesterday they interviewed some of the passangers of the cruise.

One said something that just made me laugh/cry and want to toss my radio through the wall.

"Thank god we made it home alive !!"

But then they interviewed someone that made it all better.

"It was a little uncomfortable but we had a good time. We will definatly take the free cruise !"

Its funny how two pepole whom experience the same inconvience can have two largely differing opinions.

Buddahaid · 11-12-10, 12:42 PM

It was God's punishment for gay tolerance and they were soooo lucky. I mean the Champaign got warm for Pete's sake! How did they survive.

frau kaleun · 11-12-10, 01:03 PM

They have been following this on the local news (of course) and yesterday I actually heard an anchorman say "... the Carnival Splendor is twice the size of the Titanic and sharing the same bad luck..."

Uh, no, I don't think being (relatively) safely adrift for a couple days off the Mexican Riviera and then being towed into San Diego by tugboats while the military airlifts you food and supplies, is quite the same kind of "bad luck" as watching the ship you were on sink with over half of its passengers and crew dead or dying while you, as one of the lucky ones, freeze your butt off in an open lifeboat in the middle of the freakin' north Atlantic and pray all night that some passing ship picked up your distress signals or maybe just happens to see you as it goes by.

But most of our morning/noon local news anchors appear to be high-functioning morons, so I suppose it's not that surprising.

SteamWake · 11-12-10, 01:21 PM

Not to mention the fact that they were never more than 40 some miles offshore and uh... not sinking?

Penguin · 11-12-10, 02:11 PM

Nothing against the people who sell these shirts, they are just into a quick buck. I have no respect for the people who wear them however. Damned pussies! Wow, you had no electricity and had to eat COLD sandwiches. Yes right, Titanic and Gilligans island 2.0.
If the people - soldiers and civilians - who made it through WW2 had written everything they survived onto their shirts - they would need XXXL shirts in 5pt fonts. You know why you don't see these people in shirts? This was a generation who had freaking balls and saw humbleness not as a sin. People who saw real brown sauce hitting the fan don't brag about it. It's only the loudmouths and sissies who think they know what it's like to look into Death's eyes.

...rants the angry Penguin, who would propably be the only one who would have died from starvation on the cruise - as I would never take anything from Ronald Reagan!

TarJak · 11-12-10, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

Even if I offered you the job, you would refuse
No health-care, no pension, a salary of $1 an hour, no safely, 10 hour work day

Even being a paper boy is better

$1 an hour!

Man you'd have a queue of willing workers longer than the Great Wall, paying those rates.

Try between $0.28 and $0.63 per hour for the minimum wage in China. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...8/b4011001.htm And that's if your employer is paying the "official" minimum wage set by local authorities. Good luck with that if you're working on the black.

And that's if it isn't fined away from you for various infractions, like taking too long in the bathroom: http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_40/b3701119.htm

Ducimus · 11-12-10, 05:56 PM

^
How executives get their huge salaries and bonuses: Outsource the jobs, and get these poor schmucks to do the same for pennies.

The original job holder ends up as a walmart greeter, in a McJob, or in an unemployment line. Dreams of retirement and the American dream gone up in a blaze. The new job holder overseas, gets to live as the next best thing to slave labor in a sweatshop somewhere. The executive, enjoys life on his yacht when he's not cutting you off on the freeway with his mercedes or jaguar, while laughing at everyone all the way to the bank.

tater · 11-12-10, 06:00 PM

What country is the biggest manufacturer on earth?

tater · 11-12-10, 06:34 PM

Take a RL example. ANyone here ever buy a die-cast model? I have some 1:72 scale WW2 aircraft. F4Fs, Zeros, etc. They were ~$25.

$25.

I used to make models for a living—not "build" models, but actually manufacture anatomical models (for biological supply companies, etc). $25 retail would mean I'd have to wholesale for $12.50. As my accountant kept telling me, that meant that my direct cost to make the product would need to be $6.25.

Those models are PAINTED, plus decals. You have to cast the metal, injection mold the plastic (canopies, control surfaces, etc), then clean/deburr the casts, assemble, paint, decals, then package it for $6.25. Labor is gonna be over 50% of your cost. That means the metal/plastic needs to cost you ~$3 a pop (packaging alone is probably $0.50+), leaving ~$3 in labor. What's a decent, skilled wage? I used to pay people ~$10-$15 an hour for the most part (~20-30k a year). Most were 20-somethings, many were students. In the middle, at $12/hr, that means <15 minutes total labor to build a nice, 1:72 scale model and package it for sale. The more you think these workers should be paid, the faster they need to crank them out to keep our $25 price point. Even at $25, it's not like Dragon Models sells millions of these (maybe thousands), it's a niche, and they are "expensive" as toys go.

You simply cannot make something like that in the US for $25 retail. It's impossible unless you think there is a mass market for $50+ die cast models.

So, this is a case of outsourcing production or not having the product available at a cost regular people can afford.

I think in general, the relationship between what gets made abroad, and standard of living at home is pretty complex. It's not a simple"outsourcing is bad, m'kay." Nor is it "outsourcing is great!"

Looking at how people live now, vs when I was a kid, I think people have more "stuff" now—and better stuff—than we did growing up, and we were absolutely "upper middle class." Still, my parents didn't spend like people do now. Probably because decent stuff cost more.

Platapus · 11-12-10, 08:14 PM

Always interesting to see the real numbers. Thanks for posting them

tater · 11-12-10, 09:11 PM

I investigated hiring a company here in town that does finishing for various tourist items do some painting for me on some fossil replicas. They would generate a mask that they would then spray paint over. It was a charge per step, and it was some fraction of a buck per paint pass. Their QC was not meant for fine detail like the airplane models you can buy, but was suitable for "random" patterned fossil replicas (we ended up doing it ourselves).

That said, with 5-6 colors per model on a few sides, having that painting done here in ABQ (*assuming that outfit could make tight masks to do it right) would eat up the bulk of that $3 budget for labor, if not all of it.

I actually do this in my head constantly. I see cool stuff at the museum gift shop, etc, then think how the HELL can they sell that so cheap! I was looking to buy a ship model a year or so ago—a sailing vessel, a 5th or 6th rate. I was stunned how cheap they were. You can get a 3 ft long model of a real frigate, or the HMS Surprise from O'Brian's books for ~$400. $400. Those models, even built from kits must take 10s of hours to build—very skilled labor. Blows me away. They must be making those in china or india, etc. A model that takes 20 hours of labor or more in the US? Call it $30/hr. 60k a year. There would be $600 just in labor. Assume $100 in materials, and the thing would wholesale for $1400, retail for $2800. If they only sell online and avoid wholesale, it would be closer to the $1400. Still...

There's a guy in Seattle making perfect replica WW2 A-2 flight jackets. They are over a grand each, based on the current wait time for a jacket, he has to crank out a jacket (it's just him) every 3 days or so (the leather and proper parts he buys are rare and quite expensive, so there is a few hundred in cost right there). When I buy an A-2, it's gonna be from him though, I like the idea of supporting a local (to the US) craftsman who is compulsive about accuracy.

11-12-10, 10:49 AM	#2
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	A little off topic but... I listened to a news report yesterday they interviewed some of the passangers of the cruise. One said something that just made me laugh/cry and want to toss my radio through the wall. "Thank god we made it home alive !!" But then they interviewed someone that made it all better. "It was a little uncomfortable but we had a good time. We will definatly take the free cruise !" Its funny how two pepole whom experience the same inconvience can have two largely differing opinions. __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

11-12-10, 12:42 PM	#3
Buddahaid Shark above Space Chicken Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 9,324 Downloads: 162 Uploads: 0	It was God's punishment for gay tolerance and they were soooo lucky. I mean the Champaign got warm for Pete's sake! How did they survive. __________________ "However vast the darkness, we must provide our own light." Stanley Kubrick "Tomorrow belongs to those who can hear it coming." David Bowie

11-12-10, 01:21 PM	#5
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Not to mention the fact that they were never more than 40 some miles offshore and uh... not sinking? __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

11-12-10, 08:14 PM	#11
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,373 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Always interesting to see the real numbers. Thanks for posting them __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

11-12-10, 01:03 PM	#4
frau kaleun Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skyri--oh who are we kidding, I'm probably at Lowe's. Again. Posts: 12,706 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	They have been following this on the local news (of course) and yesterday I actually heard an anchorman say "... the Carnival Splendor is twice the size of the Titanic and sharing the same bad luck..." Uh, no, I don't think being (relatively) safely adrift for a couple days off the Mexican Riviera and then being towed into San Diego by tugboats while the military airlifts you food and supplies, is quite the same kind of "bad luck" as watching the ship you were on sink with over half of its passengers and crew dead or dying while you, as one of the lucky ones, freeze your butt off in an open lifeboat in the middle of the freakin' north Atlantic and pray all night that some passing ship picked up your distress signals or maybe just happens to see you as it goes by. But most of our morning/noon local news anchors appear to be high-functioning morons, so I suppose it's not that surprising.

11-12-10, 02:11 PM	#6
Penguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Rheinische Republik Posts: 3,322 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	Nothing against the people who sell these shirts, they are just into a quick buck. I have no respect for the people who wear them however. Damned pussies! Wow, you had no electricity and had to eat COLD sandwiches. Yes right, Titanic and Gilligans island 2.0. If the people - soldiers and civilians - who made it through WW2 had written everything they survived onto their shirts - they would need XXXL shirts in 5pt fonts. You know why you don't see these people in shirts? This was a generation who had freaking balls and saw humbleness not as a sin. People who saw real brown sauce hitting the fan don't brag about it. It's only the loudmouths and sissies who think they know what it's like to look into Death's eyes. ...rants the angry Penguin, who would propably be the only one who would have died from starvation on the cruise - as I would never take anything from Ronald Reagan!

11-12-10, 05:56 PM	#8
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	^ How executives get their huge salaries and bonuses: Outsource the jobs, and get these poor schmucks to do the same for pennies. The original job holder ends up as a walmart greeter, in a McJob, or in an unemployment line. Dreams of retirement and the American dream gone up in a blaze. The new job holder overseas, gets to live as the next best thing to slave labor in a sweatshop somewhere. The executive, enjoys life on his yacht when he's not cutting you off on the freeway with his mercedes or jaguar, while laughing at everyone all the way to the bank.

11-12-10, 06:00 PM	#9
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	What country is the biggest manufacturer on earth?

11-12-10, 06:34 PM	#10
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Take a RL example. ANyone here ever buy a die-cast model? I have some 1:72 scale WW2 aircraft. F4Fs, Zeros, etc. They were ~$25. $25. I used to make models for a living—not "build" models, but actually manufacture anatomical models (for biological supply companies, etc). $25 retail would mean I'd have to wholesale for $12.50. As my accountant kept telling me, that meant that my direct cost to make the product would need to be $6.25. Those models are PAINTED, plus decals. You have to cast the metal, injection mold the plastic (canopies, control surfaces, etc), then clean/deburr the casts, assemble, paint, decals, then package it for $6.25. Labor is gonna be over 50% of your cost. That means the metal/plastic needs to cost you ~$3 a pop (packaging alone is probably $0.50+), leaving ~$3 in labor. What's a decent, skilled wage? I used to pay people ~$10-$15 an hour for the most part (~20-30k a year). Most were 20-somethings, many were students. In the middle, at $12/hr, that means <15 minutes total labor to build a nice, 1:72 scale model and package it for sale. The more you think these workers should be paid, the faster they need to crank them out to keep our $25 price point. Even at $25, it's not like Dragon Models sells millions of these (maybe thousands), it's a niche, and they are "expensive" as toys go. You simply cannot make something like that in the US for $25 retail. It's impossible unless you think there is a mass market for $50+ die cast models. So, this is a case of outsourcing production or not having the product available at a cost regular people can afford. I think in general, the relationship between what gets made abroad, and standard of living at home is pretty complex. It's not a simple"outsourcing is bad, m'kay." Nor is it "outsourcing is great!" Looking at how people live now, vs when I was a kid, I think people have more "stuff" now—and better stuff—than we did growing up, and we were absolutely "upper middle class." Still, my parents didn't spend like people do now. Probably because decent stuff cost more.

11-12-10, 09:11 PM	#12
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I investigated hiring a company here in town that does finishing for various tourist items do some painting for me on some fossil replicas. They would generate a mask that they would then spray paint over. It was a charge per step, and it was some fraction of a buck per paint pass. Their QC was not meant for fine detail like the airplane models you can buy, but was suitable for "random" patterned fossil replicas (we ended up doing it ourselves). That said, with 5-6 colors per model on a few sides, having that painting done here in ABQ (*assuming that outfit could make tight masks to do it right) would eat up the bulk of that $3 budget for labor, if not all of it. I actually do this in my head constantly. I see cool stuff at the museum gift shop, etc, then think how the HELL can they sell that so cheap! I was looking to buy a ship model a year or so ago—a sailing vessel, a 5th or 6th rate. I was stunned how cheap they were. You can get a 3 ft long model of a real frigate, or the HMS Surprise from O'Brian's books for ~$400. $400. Those models, even built from kits must take 10s of hours to build—very skilled labor. Blows me away. They must be making those in china or india, etc. A model that takes 20 hours of labor or more in the US? Call it $30/hr. 60k a year. There would be $600 just in labor. Assume $100 in materials, and the thing would wholesale for $1400, retail for $2800. If they only sell online and avoid wholesale, it would be closer to the $1400. Still... There's a guy in Seattle making perfect replica WW2 A-2 flight jackets. They are over a grand each, based on the current wait time for a jacket, he has to crank out a jacket (it's just him) every 3 days or so (the leather and proper parts he buys are rare and quite expensive, so there is a few hundred in cost right there). When I buy an A-2, it's gonna be from him though, I like the idea of supporting a local (to the US) craftsman who is compulsive about accuracy.