Why I love America

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Sure they do. However, I don't know about you, but personally, I draw the line where Chinese prosperity is taking jobs and industry away from America. China, is after all, a foreign country, and not the land that I love.

An understandable and popular sentiment, if not an entirely correct one.

China does not "take" jobs from the US. US jobs are given to or earned by China because the price of US goods is such that they are no longer desireable. At the end of the day, you have to be able to provide a product that people want at a price they are willing to pay if you want to have an industry.

Your apparent mindset is typical of people who have bought the protectionist propaganda of dying US industries. I can't say I blame you for your opinion, as the general argument is very persuasive and appeals to our sense of pride and self-reliance. I once thought the same way. It feels good to "Buy American", support domestic industry, help American families, fight against outsourcing, and all that other assorted nonsense. Who doesn't want to help fellow Americans? (provided it doesn't require any kind of significant sacrifice on the part of the people making the argument- typical of unions and politicians) Who likes the idea of a countryman losing his job (and, surprise, the potential of losing one's own job) to a foreign national interest?

The laws of supply and demand tell us that it simply is not possible to sustain an industry whose product is not desireable, no matter what policies we adopt. You've been had by people who have nothing more to offer than a tug at the heartstrings. No amount of national pride or dedication will ever bring back the US steel industry or auto industry or any other industry comprised of highly-paid workers making overpriced goods in an overly-restrictive state framework that charges an additional 36% or so (not including legal costs, permits, licensures, and lobbying). Economics do not work that way.

Your opinion is a product of indoctrination and personal appeal on the part of people who are fighting to keep their jobs, and are not above stealing your money and the opportunity of others to earn an income by competing. I'd know, I am a union employee; a member of one of the most powerful unions around: the BLET. I am not proud of what my union does to American consumers out of sheer self-interest, but I'd be a fool not to take advantage of the opportunity. Just because we're working Americans does not mean we are incapable of extorting consumers and manipulating legislators to our advantage at the expense of everyone else.

Again, you've been had, my friend. The nostalgic appeal of the American factory worker is not the way forward. It is only a product of lazy and unimaginitive jerks who are not above bilking consumers and taxpayers alike out of their hard-earned dollars for their own purposes.

The only way to national prosperity is full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes. We must have not only a free market, but the most free market. We must not just espouse the ideals of competition, we must be the most competitive. We must not linger in the past and burden our industries and consumers and importers and markets with taxes and state-supported unions and protectionism. The lazy ass who gets paid $25.00 per hour to fasten doors to automobiles isn't going to like it when he has to pursue an education and/or do some kind of skilled labor - hell, I'm not going to like it when I have to actually put some kind of effort into earning a decent living - but that is the only way to get ahead, no matter what crocodile tears we may cry.

By simply cutting the corporate tax rate to an efficient 0.0% rather than the 30-something percent it is now (which we pay, btw), and reducing government entitlements for idiots to the point where they no longer threaten the viability of the dollar, we could catapult this nation's economy into the dominant role for the next century or so. There would be an unprecedented surge in the growth of new industries and technologies, much as there was before the state got around to shackling consumer electronics. Incidentally, given the current state of affairs, watch for silicon valley to become the new Pittsburgh in the next decade because of the aforementioned reasons. Trade protectionism and government have a habit of making the goose lay lead eggs.

Maybe you're convinced, and maybe you aren't, but I would like you to take another look at the wall of text I just had to post to explain my viewpoint. I didn't even really go in-depth on this one, but it takes that amount of explanation to even try to override the commonly-held opinion that outsourcing is bad, and the result of corporate greed, or that keeping unproductive industries is good. Common sense dictates that the economy should be more fluid and competitive, but there are legions of people who believe as you do for no better reason than that they have been swayed by compassion and pride, neither of which are the keys to making a nation's industry worth either.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

China does not "take" jobs from the US. US jobs are given to or earned by China because the price of US goods is such that they are no longer desireable.

Can we put this in big honkin font that flashes red?

I always shake my head ruefully when I hear that China is "taking" jobs.

This whole thing started post WWII when the American people made a choice:

Made in America for X price
Made in Japan for Y price

Americans, being good capitalists, chose the option that gave them the mostest for the leastest.

No one stole any jobs, no one took any jobs. The customers (us) chose.

Don't blame the government, don't blame "big business", blame the customers for choosing to buy foreign goods.

Well, now it is probably too late. America can't rebuild our manufacturing factories and even if we did, the price of the goods would not be attractive to the customer.

I believe you will find few American customers willing to pay American wages, to buy at American prices, what can be obtained from overseas.

Sure Americans "care" about the lost jobs... but do Americans care enough to pay much more for the same product? Probably not.

Most Americans seem satisfied buying a smarmy magnet from a Chinese company that states "buy American products"

No one took anything. We choose to give it away.

As Porky Pig would say "We buttered our bridges, now we can sleep on it"

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Can we put this in big honkin font that flashes red?

Yes, you may.

I always shake my head ruefully when I hear that China is "taking" jobs.

I wish I could be so tactful. I usually launch into a tirade like the one I posted above when the subject comes up.

This whole thing started post WWII when the American people made a choice:

Made in America for X price
Made in Japan for Y price

Americans, being good capitalists, chose the option that gave them the mostest for the leastest.

I see your point, but that isn't exactly how it works. We'd all love to believe that there is some kind of logical course of action we can take to strengthen our nation. It is that very desire that interested parties love to prey upon, particularly when their jobs are at stake.

In reality, there is no easy way out. Buying American does nothing to perpetuate the US economy. No amount of national pride will ever rebuild the manufacturing sector because you cannot override the inviolable law that people will always end up purchasing whatever is the most economical. Societal visions mean little or nothing to a family that is simply trying to make its wat in the world. They will always opt for the most economical product, to the best of their ability.

No one stole any jobs, no one took any jobs. The customers (us) chose.

And we always choose what is most efficient. Well, most of the time, anyway.

Don't blame the government, don't blame "big business", blame the customers for choosing to buy foreign goods.

Oh, but I do blame the government. In fact, I blame the government for at least 37% of the failure of US industry, which is equal to the corporate tax rate; read 37% increase in the prices of goods. I also blame it for additional increases in the prices of goods through tariffs, superfluous licensures, and the ridiculously expensive legal fees that must be paid just to buy or sell something in this damn place.

There is no point in blaming US customers, or any customers for that matter. They are a known factor. They will always buy the mostest for the leastest. Even if they didn't, they could not support the US economy on their own. You must either be competitive or innovative to be prosperous. The world does not pay for mediocrity.

You've been suckered into believing something that isn't true by people who don't give a rat's ass about you or anyone else. They simply proffer the argument that buying American is better because they want to keep their jobs and charge you extra for their own gain. You would not believe the lengths they will go to achieve their goal, either. Read ten pages of US trade law and you will see the ludicrous lengths people will go to to preserve their jobs at the expense of prosperity for everyone else.

As with most things in life, you have to earn prosperity, which means that you have to be competitive. Being competitive in a capitalist society means giving people things they actually want and not manipulating them, or worse, forcing them into paying more.

Well, now it is probably too late. America can't rebuild our manufacturing factories and even if we did, the price of the goods would not be attractive to the customer.

You are correct. The American manufacturing industry is dead, more or less. Nobody is going to pay the wages we demand.

But who cares? Our economy is not a modern manufacturing economy anymore, just as it wasn't a sweatshop economy 150 years ago, or an agrarian economy before that. Thank God we didn't listen to the whining of people who wanted to keep their jobs then. Whay should we do so now?

I believe you will find few American customers willing to pay American wages, to buy at American prices, what can be obtained from overseas.

Correct. But you will find more than enough investors willing to pay poor overseas wages for cheap goods. That's the wave of the future, and most American companies have already realized this.

Sure Americans "care" about the lost jobs... but do Americans care enough to pay much more for the same product? Probably not.

Does anyone care enough to pay more - no matter where their loyalty lies?

Most Americans seem satisfied buying a smarmy magnet from a Chinese company that states "buy American products"

And you judge them for this?

No one took anything. We choose to give it away.

Indeed, but not in the way you imagine.

As Porky Pig would say "We buttered our bridges, now we can sleep on it

Bbde bde bbde- that's all, folks

[Ducimus]

BTW, the answer to my question above is "the USA." We are the biggest manufacturer on earth.

Do you know how incredibly hard that is to believe when everything you run across in day to day life is made in China?

I think there are two items in my life that i'm pretty sure were made here.. actually.... 3.

1.) The Ford ranger i have the title to.
2.) My dogs collar ( I s**t you not, i actually saw made in the USA on the packaging when i bought it, which floored me)
3.) Mr Mossberg 500.

Everything else in my possession, is made in China or elsewhere. If we really are the worlds biggest manufacturer, surely there would be more items that say Made in USa - but they're aren't. I know, at least i think i would, because i look for domestically made items and buy them specifically over chinese made items when i can.

edit:
My bottom line is this: I love my country. I HATE .. yes.. HATE, with a fervent passion seeing jobs being lossed, and our industry being exported overseas. I DO NOT CARE about ANY foreign country. Not china, not india, certainly not Korea, nobody. They can all go to hell for all i care. I only care, about my country. If we do not take care of ourselves first, then NOBODY will.

[Ducimus]

See, this is the type of crap that ROYALLY pisses me off.


( Also the only poltiical attack ad that has ever worked to sway my opinion

IMO, People like Fiona, are nothing short of traitors to our country and our people. I sincerely mean that. That is how strongly i feel about this subject. ( Edit: Also my only political hot button now that i think of it)

[tater]

Again, what's the big picture. Certain jobs end up overseas. In return, the consumer gets more for less. What of all that chinese stuff are you willing to part with? The choice is to pay more for everything and pay high wages (ie: you taking a hit so that some guy can have a marginal factory job—or a GREAT factory job and you take a bigger hit), or perhaps automated production that keeps the factory in the US, but hires almost no one. The latter also more than China because of US regulations.

The US Corp. tax rate is certainly an issue, but no one pays the full %. It would make far more sense to have a far lower rate with no loopholes. Encourage business to move here instead of encouraging it to leave (what our high Corp rate does).

The US is <5% of world population, and we do ~36% of manufacturing.

How much more do you demand? We used to do ~50%. Do you think the US doing 50% is sustainable forever? We'd literally have to bomb China and India out of the industrial age. Nothing else we would do would stop it.

[tater]

That ad is pretty dumb, IMO. What business has Boxer run?

The ad falsely makes it look like there was a choice. HP needed to evolve, or DIE.

Pick one.

Better for HP to have a pyrrhic victory and die, but keep 30k people employed for some indeterminate time before everyone at HP is pounding the pavement?

That's the choice that had to be made. An intact business, with part in China, or no business (in which case the jobs STILL move to China, but with no US part at all).

Or you can believe Boxer. Presumably her opponent planned her entire life to send jobs overseas. that was her real goal, after all. Right? What did Boxer do to change the rules of the game? A business can lobby to change the way things are in the future, but right now, they have to play with what they are given rules wise. HP, Dell, etc, are competing with companies from all over the world (mostly China). That's reality. Fail to keep up on price, etc, and that's it, you're toast.

[kiwi_2005]

Just curious how much does meat go for in the USA. Over here I remeber and not long ago 8-9 years a leg of mutton cost $8, a leg of lamb $12. Now its $33 and $40. A leg of lamb $40! Pork is cheaper a good fat roast pork is around $18-25. Still I reckon meat is overpriced here.

[AdeptCharge]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

My bottom line is this: I love my country. I HATE .. yes.. HATE, with a fervent passion seeing jobs being lossed, and our industry being exported overseas. I DO NOT CARE about ANY foreign country. Not china, not india, certainly not Korea, nobody. They can all go to hell for all i care. I only care, about my country. If we do not take care of ourselves first, then NOBODY will.

[Diopos]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

...
I DO NOT CARE about ANY foreign country.
...

But ... but ... but... we are friends ...

No?

Anyway, you should always "care" about potential customers ...

The Chinese seem to do ... Link

.

[tater]

While I disagree with ducimus entirely (least if that dumb Boxer video is any indication, I don't even consider it mildly compelling) on some points, I do pretty much agree with the "I DO NOT CARE about ANY foreign country."

I don't, either, except to the extent they are useful to promote American interests.

BTW, did anyone not find it amusing that Boxer—a proponent of virtually any deficit spending you'd care to name (except maybe defense)—is attacking business moving to China. Who, pray tell, Senator Boxer, will be paying for all your socialist government spending ideas? Certainly not the taxpayer since she spends more than is collected (and if she had her way, we'd spend even more in the red). China, that's who. Any increase in the Chinese bottom line is exactly what someone like Boxer must want, else how will they afford to be our creditors?

[Takeda Shingen]

I know that this is off topic, but I love America because I can buy whiskey on Sundays.

Back to topic.

[the_tyrant]

Its people like Ducimus that ruin the US
Globalization is a trend that can't be stopped
and maybe we can even see further political consolidation (the united states of earth maybe?) in the future