TMO and dd evasion--my technique fails.

[Armistead]

If you're playing RSRD, it sets the factors for the crews, poor-elite, not TMO. However, I don't think it effects the sensors of TMO, so still fairly tough.

Have you installed the IJN radar fix by tater, doe's help some as far as them picking you up on radar much further.

In rough water I'll come at the TF straight on between the lead escort and the flank escort, with the goal of turning it to a 45 degree attack. Usually this means I have to shoot at the further line of targets as one line is almost on top of me. Course a few times I've been ran over with my scope up by large ships, so try to be careful.

I seldom have a problem getting my attack off at close range. Usually I'll get pinged or found out soon after. My goal is to get my shots off before I'm found out. I don't dive deep until my attack is done. If I get pinged, I'm gonna stay flank and get my attack off if possible. The only issue I have is being stuck with some bad gyro's, but I've gotten fairly good with them. You can forget most target shooting methods, you stad it, guess where it's going and setup for where you want torp placement and then I'll unlock and shoot by the wire.

Ive never had any luck with all the various shooting methods attacking TF. It sets you to a holding pattern that often places you in front of a DD.

The good thing about RSRD is the TF are more spread out and often a wider escort screen. Often in calm waters I'll let them pick me up on radar so several escorts come a running. When they get about 8000 yards I'll dive and go flank and deep heading to my attack point. Don't let them catch you on radar where you want to shoot from. Usually a group of DD's are in my stern searchin where I dived leaving a flank exposed for me to attack from. Simply I'll be in front of the target about 10nms about 5000 yards off my attack point. I sit there until the escorts come and dive flank deep until I get to my attack point. The goal is to put 3000 yards between my arse and the searching escorts where I dived, then I can usually come up without them finding me.

With cams and contacts off just make sure you mark where you dived and where you want to be when you shoot. The mark where you dived should be where the escorts will be searcing for you. If you can get to your shooting point without being pinged, success. If you're being pinged, hard to know if it's safe to come up when you're stuck in the sub. If they have me on longscale, I'll chance it, shortscale, head for deep water.

Still, best plans can be foiled. Sometimes it's best to wait. The good thing about RSRD is most TF return along the path they came. My biggest mistake is getting greedy, often it works, sometimes not. I've blown some good setups trying to hit say 4 capital ships, when I should've settled for two. My goal is to sink one and atleast damage another so the TF will slow down, making the next end around easier. I'm sure I miss as much as anyone.


I've always found speed and depth to be the factor in living. If you're gonna run at silent at 1kt, your gonna die with TMO.

[I'm goin' down]

I assume you are attacking while moving towards the TF? Is PK on? If not, are you using Cromwell, Rock n Shoals constant bearing method, or some other technique?

[Bubblehead1980]

Keeping about 20 degrees rudder on with 1-2 knots, making a constant slow turn throws the escorts off, they dont know your path and lose contact.When they are roaring overhead, put your rudder amidships and go ahead flank for thirty seconds, the DD's noises cover yours, then all stop and put on 20 degrees rudder in the OPPOSITE direction it was before you went ahead flank.Do this for a few runs, it usually confuses the DD's and they will lose you.Takes some nerve esp with cams and contacts off but it works.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I assume you are attacking while moving towards the TF? Is PK on? If not, are you using Cromwell, Rock n Shoals constant bearing method, or some other technique?

Usually I want to dive about 3000-5000 yards to the flank of the coming TF if I plan to pull the escorts away. Much harder to do with cams off, so I'll try to get a good track and mark my attack position. More often than not unless water is way rough, I'll pull the escorts out by letting them get me with radar or even chance a visual if needed. Sometime I even have to ping the group a few times, but that works even better giving me range. That's why you need to mark where you dive, because that's where the escorts will be searching, plus a mark where you hope to attack from. You want to pull the escorts away as far from the group as you can, if they come a running from 10nms, that's great, dive and haul arse to your attack point. If you wait too long the TF may go by.

The main thing is when you dive to haul arse and escape the circle the escorts will be searching. Usually I'll atleast go past the thermal layer. If sonar tells me they're still at my dive mark I know I can come up to scope depth, but you have to time it where you can reach your attack point, but the TF will go into zigs and slow down giving you more time. If you're being pinged, you didn't get far enough away from the hunters...then it's a chance.

If not doing this I try to set myself 1000 yards to the flank of the lead escort and come straight at that mark, helming my bow slowly towards him. I will try to get speed and course with stad and lock on so I'll have some clue before I get too close. Usually you know when you're close. Main thing is to listen with sonar for that lead escort to pass, that's time to come up and shoot. Hopefully the lead escort will be gone anyway searching your dive spot. Again, any fixed attack method that holds you to a course is dangerous. Nothing against all the OKane type attacks, they have a place, but if your goal becomes to stay on a fixed course, you're gonna get pinged by the flank escort.

Obvious when you come up ships will be zigging different speeds, so it's picking targets and two good stad points then easy aob for course and speed, then unlock and shoot by the wire. I'll shoot all torps and dive and head flank so I can again leave where the escorts will come hunting.

Obvious if I'm using cams I can just steer with the cam and watch everything, which is rather easy, but I play both ways depending on time, but still use same tactics.

Here is my attack with the Yamato where I had to do 3 end arounds, you can sort of get the idea. At least twice when I attacked the Yamato a few escorts were way off searching where I dived off the flank. You can basically see how I stad and shoot by the wire, which I think you understand being a fan of ez aob, in fact I think you turned me on to it.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=175983

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Usually I want to dive about 3000-5000 yards to the flank of the coming TF if I plan to pull the escorts away. Much harder to do with cams off, so I'll try to get a good track and mark my attack position. More often than not unless water is way rough, I'll pull the escorts out by letting them get me with radar or even chance a visual if needed. Sometime I even have to ping the group a few times, but that works even better giving me range. That's why you need to mark where you dive, because that's where the escorts will be searching, plus a mark where you hope to attack from. You want to pull the escorts away as far from the group as you can, if they come a running from 10nms, that's great, dive and haul arse to your attack point. If you wait too long the TF may go by.

The main thing is when you dive to haul arse and escape the circle the escorts will be searching. Usually I'll atleast go past the thermal layer. If sonar tells me they're still at my dive mark I know I can come up to scope depth, but you have to time it where you can reach your attack point, but the TF will go into zigs and slow down giving you more time. If you're being pinged, you didn't get far enough away from the hunters...then it's a chance.

If not doing this I try to set myself 1000 yards to the flank of the lead escort and come straight at that mark, helming my bow slowly towards him. I will try to get speed and course with stad and lock on so I'll have some clue before I get too close. Usually you know when you're close. Main thing is to listen with sonar for that lead escort to pass, that's time to come up and shoot. Hopefully the lead escort will be gone anyway searching your dive spot. Again, any fixed attack method that holds you to a course is dangerous. Nothing against all the OKane type attacks, they have a place, but if your goal becomes to stay on a fixed course, you're gonna get pinged by the flank escort.

Obvious when you come up ships will be zigging different speeds, so it's picking targets and two good stad points then easy aob for course and speed, then unlock and shoot by the wire. I'll shoot all torps and dive and head flank so I can again leave where the escorts will come hunting.

Obvious if I'm using cams I can just steer with the cam and watch everything, which is rather easy, but I play both ways depending on time, but still use same tactics.

Here is my attack with the Yamato where I had to do 3 end arounds, you can sort of get the idea. At least twice when I attacked the Yamato a few escorts were way off searching where I dived off the flank. You can basically see how I stad and shoot by the wire, which I think you understand being a fan of ez aob, in fact I think you turned me on to it.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=175983

Okay. I have shook off the dds and escrorts by submerging and surfacing between where they spotted me and the TF track. But the TF is moving fast. If I set up for constant bearing or O'Kane, you indicate I will be discovered. I assume you are turning on the PK and using manual targeting while closing on the TF after you have resurfaced at your predesignated position. This mean you have to have the track of the TF, identified the target's, entered speed and course, and determined range. (ie. I assume you are using the Easy Aob mod). How do you find time to do that when the TF can be doing over 20 kts? In one Lyete Gulf battle I calculated the TF speed at 33 kts. Note I set up at approximately 4,500 yds off the TF track and well ahead of it. I dive and resurface uon being spotted at around 2,000 yds. According to your post I should continue to close as I fire torpedoes. Between the time I dive and resurface the TF is really close, and their is insufficient time to use the 3 minute rule for speed and course calculations. How should I attack?

[Armistead]

For one I will have the base speed long before I attack, when cams offs using radar mod or just a guess based on if I can parallel it's course and match speed, pass it, ect. Most TF run at 17-19kts. Usually I let them find me on radar and will run from the group so they will go into zig mode, that slows them down and I will run away until the escorts turn back and track my end around.

When I want to attack I will have course by making marks and using the tools to figure his base track, again using radar mod or if contacts on rather simple, no need to explain.

The only TF I've seen hit 30kts of more are the fast dd groups in the slot, but I attack them all the time as they come in one line.

Usually when I pull the DD's away and dive I hope to be 3-5000 yards off my attack track and not come back to surface. I did surface once in my Y attack because I was able, but that's rare.. If you can pull the escorts away at about 5nm's I've never had a problem diving going flank and putting them 3000 yards behind me hunting out of sonar range. If a TF is going faster say 24kts...you still should be able to travel 1500 yards at flank before they can reach 5nms, giving you a 1500 yard shot.

Sort of think of it as a triangle. The TF the tip coming down the left line, the escorts coming faster down the right line and you the bottom line right moving left wanting to be where the left line connects your base before the TF gets there and the escorts should be searching at the base right line when you attack.

When I attack, I'm setting up a normal two stad measurments for course and speed, leave PK locked, unlock scope, reset bearing at the bow and shoot by the wire. The group should be zigging, you may even get into the middle of it before you need to shoot and can use all tubes on several targets. Often you'll have to guess AOB based on his zig pattern, not what it is at the moment.

[I'm goin' down]

17 miles due north of Samar from the center of the Island, the Jap Fleet was travelling at 32-33 kts. heading in a south easterly direction. On their return trip, it was travelling at 22-23 kts. I fired a blind salvo at around 8,000yds and had three hits on a BB (a true once in a lifetime strike.) The torepdoes were set for less than 10 ft running depth and did not slow the target down. The TF was travelling two rows and was LARGE, completely ringed by escorts.

[Armistead]

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

[Marko]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

Writing down this invaluable infos from ComSubPac for future use in RSRD

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

I do not know whose fleet it was or where it was heading to or coming from. It was totally encircled by dds/escorts, and I recall there were two log columns of captal ships. I did not take an inventory when I flew over with my camera, but there were lots of BBs. I only got one speed reading in each direction, so I cannot say I am certain on the speed of the TF. However, I tried to get a head of them when I first spotted them, and they exceeded the speed of Balao which was at 22-24 kts. I finally gave up on that plan, and went for what turned out to be a lucky shot at long range.

[CaptainJack]

Originally Posted by Armistead

When I attack, I'm setting up a normal two stad measurments for course and speed, leave PK locked, unlock scope, reset bearing at the bow and shoot by the wire.

Thanks for this tip Armistead - I've been reading your posts in this thread with interest since I've been kind of locked into the O'Kane firing method and have been looking for a good method to "fire on the fly." I want to make sure I understand your method correctly though since I'm still getting some misses and usually missing ahead of the target. So if I understand correctly, you are taking two stadimeter readings for target bearing and range (with some elapsed time between readings), then setting angle on the bow according to target course (easy AOB), then setting target speed? Then is it one more stadimeter reading prior to PK on? Or do you set AOB and speed prior to second stadimeter reading then PK lock? Once PK is activated, am I understanding correctly that you are unlocking scope, setting wire on target bow, clicking on send to TDC for wire bearing then shooting by wire... say mast, MOT, mast? Does that sound right?

Sorry for all the questions - I just want to make sure I'm doing it right. It seems like once PK is set, the TDC is going to be constantly updating lead angle for the target - which is why I am a little confused by the unlock scope-leave PK on-set wire on target bow and set bearing-shoot by wire. It seems like setting the bearing again with wire on target bow could cause fish to have an even greater lead angle and run ahead. Let me know if I'm thoroughly confused Thanks!

[I'm goin' down]

How do you get a stadimeter reading for target bearing? (I do not think you can.)

1. The target's bearing is the number degrees displayed on the periscope when you have it locked on the target. You get speed by clicking the speed button on the Speed Dial, but, as I recall, you have to be locked on the target for this method to work. Of course, you can measure speed by other methods such as the three minute rule.

2. You get range from the range dial.

3. You set the Aob per the Easy Aob mod by setting it to match the target's true course per the compass tool. If you use Easy Aob, once speed and course are established and entered on the Attack Dials, you can turn on the PK. The TDC should begin following the target. You can input range after the PK is activated, as the TDC is tracking the target's course and speed. (Note, using Easy Aob: If more than one target is on the same course, after firing at the first target, all that is required is a range adjustment to track the second target.)

As for firing by the wire, I have no idea what Armistead is talking about. Take a look in the Bag of Tricks thread re Rock n Shoals constant bearing method in lieu of the O'Kane method. You can use it at long distance without activating the PK. Now for Armistead to impart his brillance... How he avoids dds is beyond me, if TMO is applied using its original AI.

[Dignan]

It's my understanding that you don't ever turn on the PK when using the O'Kane method. AT least I never do when doing a 90 degree O'Kane style attack but I'll let the experts chime in to confirm. That may be where you are getting your misses from.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by CaptainJack

Thanks for this tip Armistead - I've been reading your posts in this thread with interest since I've been kind of locked into the O'Kane firing method and have been looking for a good method to "fire on the fly." I want to make sure I understand your method correctly though since I'm still getting some misses and usually missing ahead of the target. So if I understand correctly, you are taking two stadimeter readings for target bearing and range (with some elapsed time between readings), then setting angle on the bow according to target course (easy AOB), then setting target speed? Then is it one more stadimeter reading prior to PK on? Or do you set AOB and speed prior to second stadimeter reading then PK lock? Once PK is activated, am I understanding correctly that you are unlocking scope, setting wire on target bow, clicking on send to TDC for wire bearing then shooting by wire... say mast, MOT, mast? Does that sound right?

Sorry for all the questions - I just want to make sure I'm doing it right. It seems like once PK is set, the TDC is going to be constantly updating lead angle for the target - which is why I am a little confused by the unlock scope-leave PK on-set wire on target bow and set bearing-shoot by wire. It seems like setting the bearing again with wire on target bow could cause fish to have an even greater lead angle and run ahead. Let me know if I'm thoroughly confused Thanks!

You're correct in all your assuptions. I do leave the PK on just until I fire and unlock both PK and scope. If I didn't make that clear, my bad. Once I unlock the scope, I'll set a new bearing in front of the ship and wait for it to come to it and shoot by the wire. Sometimes for speed I'll set new bearings for each shot where I want to shoot instead of waiting for the ship to cross the wire, usually in the middle of a TF with escorts coming almost always shooting at large ships, sometimes seconds count.

My first one is almost always at the bow or in front of it to hold a ship in place from speeding up so the others will hit. Usually I'll hit with all. Sometimes I'll even then change speed a few knots slower to make a spread. If a group is zigging and I can figure AOB of both legs, I split the difference. Still, most the time I guess where my torps need to be and set it up that way.

MOT...Middle of the Target.