German police arrest 22 in neo-Nazi internet raid - Page 4

CaptainHaplo · 11-04-10, 10:00 AM

Tater - it took 18 months for me to get a security clearance - because my grandfather (on my mother's side) was a Nazi Party member. Know what they learned? The same thing that I already knew - he was asked one day if he was a member of the Nazi Party in 1944 - with a gun to his head. He had 2 children and one on the way (my mother), so ask yourself what you would have answered in his place....

To protect his life and his family he had to register as a party member. Not every "nazi" believed in ole Adolph, or racial supremecy, or any of the rest of the bullcrap that came from that regime. Some simply didn't have a choice given the political climate they were in.

Sailor Steve · 11-04-10, 11:02 AM

"Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.
-James Madison

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
-H. L. Mencken

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
-Hermann Göring

I've said this in threads about the American Civil War, and I've said it in threads about the Second World War - young men sign up to fight because they believe their country, their way of life and their families are threatened. Very few ever enlist out of a love of killing, or a love of an ideology. The average German soldier, and the average German civilian, was not a Nazi, and likely not even an idealist. They were just people, doing what they thought was best for their country.

I think of the quotes I posted above every time someone uses the words "Patriot Act". We are all susceptible to persuasion from above, because we all want to believe we are right, and we all want our church, our party and our country to be right as well. This blinds us to the possibility that we might be backing the wrong side for the "right" reasons.

Tater, I never suspected you had that much unreasoning hate in you.

"'My country, right or wrong' is something no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case."
-H. L. Mencken

Skybird · 11-04-10, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I've said this in threads about the American Civil War, and I've said it in threads about the Second World War - young men sign up to fight because they believe their country, their way of life and their families are threatened. Very few ever enlist out of a love of killing, or a love of an ideology. The average German soldier, and the average German civilian, was not a Nazi, and likely not even an idealist. They were just people, doing what they thought was best for their country.

Sometimes you do not have that choice to voluntarily enlist. You get forced to enter the army either by threatening sanctions to yourself, or to your loved ones at home - period.

Task Force · 11-04-10, 03:06 PM

Good post last page skybird, As Joea said, I actualy read all of it, instead of skimming over it.

Gerald · 11-04-10, 03:28 PM

I agree, a totally different view!

Skybird · 11-04-10, 03:36 PM

Thanks for the cheers.

Just because the news is from today, and losely connected to this thread:

First female Rabbi since Holocaust ordained in Germany

11-04-10, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Skybird wrote:
Tater,

the father of my father and his two brothers were drafted and taken away from their families, they all married young, had already families and children. They had to have these on their minds, too. My grandfather survived Russia, with one eye, one leg and one loung, his two brothers did not return.

There is a good phrase: "You brought this to yourself". If you choosing a nationalistic group to run your country, then you must face the consequences, no more and no less. Nationalism means unnecessary pride which result a person to believe that he is better that other just because his a German (in your case) and this turn into violent act which leads to war. And war leads to death and suffer. So don`t ask for my pity, please

. Enjoy the snow

...ops here goes the unlucky slave trader

the_tyrant · 11-04-10, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimitrius07

There is a good phrase: "You brought this to yourself". If you choosing a nationalistic group to run your country, then you must face the consequences, no more and no less. Nationalism means unnecessary pride which result a person to believe that he is better that other just because his a German (in your case) and this turn into violent act which leads to war. And war leads to death and suffer. So don`t ask for my pity, please

. Enjoy the snow

...ops here goes the unlucky slave trader

and here goes another super long flame war

11-04-10, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

and here goes another super long flame war

You think that way because you don`t know how to read or don`t want to. I don`t start flame war, i am only give my feedback + a little jokes here and there. When a message contain insults or stupidity (not peaking on individuals here) i reply accordingly. You don`t have to like it

.

tater · 11-04-10, 06:13 PM

Civilians in the US knew about the death camps, and pressured FDR to bomb them. If any US civilians knew, then virtually all german civilians had to know.

Since any germans that lived through the war had a vested interest in saying they did not know about atrocities after the war, their answers must be assumed to be self-serving unless proved otherwise. I've heard interviews with those that say that they did know, so what was special about those civilians? Nothing. They knew cause everyone knew. I used to have lunch sometimes with a retired history prof who was in the WM on the Eastern Front (a junior officer, he was a russian language student and was used for that skill), he told me everyone knew what was going on, but that it was a different time, and that was the way everyone thought.

My point was that I didn't care if they were officially members or not. It doesn't matter, actions speak louder than words or signatures on party cards. If you fought to prolong the Reich, you were culpable in prolonging the Reich, period.

My observation about being pleased at the summary execution in SPR won't change. These are guys who are fighting for continued genocide. That IS what they are fighting for, just like the Confederates in the US Civil War were fighting so human beings could be property. Were they all thinking about that when they fought? No, of course not. Doesn't matter, that IS what they fought for, like it or not—heck, even if they didn't know that was what they fought for, it was what they fought for.

Faced with the D-Day invasion force, they had zero chance of winning the day. Zero. Surrender would have been entirely honorable in the face of that force without firing a shot. Instead, they killed countless boys (from damn far away) who were there to STOP genocide. Were they thinking about THAT? Nope, but that is none the less what they were fighting for. At that point, I have virtually no sympathy for the defenders. I agree with Patton when he told his junior officers not to accept German surrenders inside 200 yards—the time for the bad guys to surrender is before they needlessly kill our guys (needless since they're going to be surrendering anyway—all that German killing was just "because").

When you look at something on topic for SS, u-boats, then it's clearer. Any that didn't support the war could simply have defected. They would be assumed lost (since most boats WERE lost). Every single death they caused once the US was in was needless (and before that, malicious, assuming they thought they could win). IN fact, their fighting prolonged the war, and hence caused even more deaths (Allied, Axis, and civilian).

Bottom line is that without the consent of the populace, the Nazis would have been overthrown. The Soviets killed more than they did, and THEY were overthrown, after all.

Platapus · 11-04-10, 07:07 PM

You have an interesting interpretation of history. Thanks for sharing it.

Dowly · 11-04-10, 07:14 PM

"Interesting" indeed.

DarkFish · 11-04-10, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

These are guys who are fighting for continued genocide. That IS what they are fighting for, just like the Confederates in the US Civil War were fighting so human beings could be property. Were they all thinking about that when they fought? No, of course not. Doesn't matter, that IS what they fought for, like it or not—heck, even if they didn't know that was what they fought for, it was what they fought for.

It's not what they fought for. They all had very different reasons to fight. To continue with your civil war analogy, some soldiers may indeed have fought to keep slavery. Others fought to defend their "fatherland" against the north. Others fought to defend their families and beloved ones. Others may have fought simply for the money or the thrill. And many others fought simply because they were conscripted.

You say that fighting for a country would automatically mean fighting for its government. That would be the same as saying that all patriots in the US army are fighting for Obama.
You're saying that German soldiers should have defected/surrendered if they were against the Nazis. That would be the same as saying all US soldiers who are against Obama should defect/surrender.

kiwi_2005 · 11-04-10, 07:32 PM

couple of movies you should watch Tater,

Schlinders list -
who saved Jews from the death camps, although some say he was just saving himself as he believed germany was going to lose the war but why would he risk his life saving Jews if that was the reason.

The Pianist -
about a Jew on the run from the nazis where he got help from the germans and other nationalities plus its a great movie too. Watched it for the 2nd time the other night

And anther one but I can't remember the name of it came out about a year ago and wasn't all that popular. Its about a German nurse who helped smuggle Jewish baby's out of Germany.

Yeah I know they're are just movies but based on true stories.

Platapus · 11-04-10, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFish

And many others fought simply because they were conscripted.

People fight because they are told to fight and back then (and perhaps today) there is a respect for Nationalism.

If your country calls for your service, you provide it.

It is tough to explain.

11-04-10, 10:00 AM	#46
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Tater - it took 18 months for me to get a security clearance - because my grandfather (on my mother's side) was a Nazi Party member. Know what they learned? The same thing that I already knew - he was asked one day if he was a member of the Nazi Party in 1944 - with a gun to his head. He had 2 children and one on the way (my mother), so ask yourself what you would have answered in his place.... To protect his life and his family he had to register as a party member. Not every "nazi" believed in ole Adolph, or racial supremecy, or any of the rest of the bullcrap that came from that regime. Some simply didn't have a choice given the political climate they were in. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

11-04-10, 11:02 AM	#47
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	"Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad. -James Madison "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -H. L. Mencken "Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." -Hermann Göring I've said this in threads about the American Civil War, and I've said it in threads about the Second World War - young men sign up to fight because they believe their country, their way of life and their families are threatened. Very few ever enlist out of a love of killing, or a love of an ideology. The average German soldier, and the average German civilian, was not a Nazi, and likely not even an idealist. They were just people, doing what they thought was best for their country. I think of the quotes I posted above every time someone uses the words "Patriot Act". We are all susceptible to persuasion from above, because we all want to believe we are right, and we all want our church, our party and our country to be right as well. This blinds us to the possibility that we might be backing the wrong side for the "right" reasons. Tater, I never suspected you had that much unreasoning hate in you. "'My country, right or wrong' is something no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case." -H. L. Mencken __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

11-04-10, 03:06 PM	#49
Task Force Rear Admiral Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPACE!!!! Posts: 10,142 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Good post last page skybird, As Joea said, I actualy read all of it, instead of skimming over it. __________________ Task Force industries "Taking control of the world, one mind at a time"

11-04-10, 03:28 PM	#50
Gerald SUBSIM Newsman Join Date: May 2008 Location: Close to sea Posts: 24,254 Downloads: 553 Uploads: 0	I agree, a totally different view! __________________ Nothing in life is to be feard,it is only to be understood. Marie Curie

11-04-10, 03:36 PM	#51
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,655 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the cheers. Just because the news is from today, and losely connected to this thread: First female Rabbi since Holocaust ordained in Germany __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-04-10, 06:13 PM	#55
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Civilians in the US knew about the death camps, and pressured FDR to bomb them. If any US civilians knew, then virtually all german civilians had to know. Since any germans that lived through the war had a vested interest in saying they did not know about atrocities after the war, their answers must be assumed to be self-serving unless proved otherwise. I've heard interviews with those that say that they did know, so what was special about those civilians? Nothing. They knew cause everyone knew. I used to have lunch sometimes with a retired history prof who was in the WM on the Eastern Front (a junior officer, he was a russian language student and was used for that skill), he told me everyone knew what was going on, but that it was a different time, and that was the way everyone thought. My point was that I didn't care if they were officially members or not. It doesn't matter, actions speak louder than words or signatures on party cards. If you fought to prolong the Reich, you were culpable in prolonging the Reich, period. My observation about being pleased at the summary execution in SPR won't change. These are guys who are fighting for continued genocide. That IS what they are fighting for, just like the Confederates in the US Civil War were fighting so human beings could be property. Were they all thinking about that when they fought? No, of course not. Doesn't matter, that IS what they fought for, like it or not—heck, even if they didn't know that was what they fought for, it was what they fought for. Faced with the D-Day invasion force, they had zero chance of winning the day. Zero. Surrender would have been entirely honorable in the face of that force without firing a shot. Instead, they killed countless boys (from damn far away) who were there to STOP genocide. Were they thinking about THAT? Nope, but that is none the less what they were fighting for. At that point, I have virtually no sympathy for the defenders. I agree with Patton when he told his junior officers not to accept German surrenders inside 200 yards—the time for the bad guys to surrender is before they needlessly kill our guys (needless since they're going to be surrendering anyway—all that German killing was just "because"). When you look at something on topic for SS, u-boats, then it's clearer. Any that didn't support the war could simply have defected. They would be assumed lost (since most boats WERE lost). Every single death they caused once the US was in was needless (and before that, malicious, assuming they thought they could win). IN fact, their fighting prolonged the war, and hence caused even more deaths (Allied, Axis, and civilian). Bottom line is that without the consent of the populace, the Nazis would have been overthrown. The Soviets killed more than they did, and THEY were overthrown, after all.

11-04-10, 07:07 PM	#56
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,378 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	You have an interesting interpretation of history. Thanks for sharing it. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

11-04-10, 07:14 PM	#57
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,054 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	"Interesting" indeed.

11-04-10, 07:32 PM	#59
kiwi_2005 Eternal Patrol Join Date: May 2004 Location: Aeoteroa Posts: 7,382 Downloads: 223 Uploads: 1	couple of movies you should watch Tater, Schlinders list - who saved Jews from the death camps, although some say he was just saving himself as he believed germany was going to lose the war but why would he risk his life saving Jews if that was the reason. The Pianist - about a Jew on the run from the nazis where he got help from the germans and other nationalities plus its a great movie too. Watched it for the 2nd time the other night And anther one but I can't remember the name of it came out about a year ago and wasn't all that popular. Its about a German nurse who helped smuggle Jewish baby's out of Germany. Yeah I know they're are just movies but based on true stories. __________________ RIP kiwi_2005 Those who can't laugh at themselves leave the job to others.