A question about the Sonar Ping - Page 3

Dogfish40 · 11-02-10, 10:32 AM

I'm jumping on this rather late but one thing that I happened to ask myself, (being a sound engineer) I wondered if you could use your active sonar to cancel their pings if you could time it right, (an incredibly difficult if not impossible proposal) BUT....lo and behold, there was a protocol to use your active sonar to confuse the enemy when they were pinging. I know that this unfortunately is not written into the game but the Sub Doctrine said something to the effect that ; if you are using the same frequency, you had the possibility of confusing the ememy's active sonar, by pinging back. I'll have to go and get that chapter and share it, it was really interesting that it could be used in a desperate situation. I am sure no one would want to start pinging away when you're trying like hell to hide, but when the chips are down....hey

D40 Cmmdr Uss Gar

MaddogK · 11-02-10, 11:54 AM

Just to add my 2 cents worth,
1. You NEVER want to go 'active' on a military ship, if they have any kinda passive sonar you will give them the vector your on and all they have to do is travel down that vector pinging, and they find you.
2. Unless your closing in for a kill you will almost always want to be below the layer. The layer is the boundary between warmer surface waters and the colder 'depths', and normally where sounds from the surface are reflected back toward the surface. Below this layer sound is generally reflected down until pressure refracts is back upward. I have verified the game does indeed model this as hunting destroyers usually cant find you (unless they're right on top of you) if your running silent below the layer.
3. I haven't noticed if the game imitates a doppler shift from shipping noise or active sonar, but it is present in aircraft, I can't imagine why it wouldn't be present in the game for underwater sound (you fellow sonar guys know what I'm talking about). I'll be paying more attention to this in the future.
4. I'm not a WW2 historian but before the advent of audio processing computers sonar operators could tell what type of contact they were tracking simply by listening to the noise it made. The game does a good job of recreating this but there's always room for improvement. There is a difference between tanker noise and a carrier, I'm just not sure how accurate it is (or how accurate it really needs to be), luckily this is an area that can be modded.

This game's sonar is nowhere near the sonar in 688(i) but I can't complain, it could be alot worse. (Me- ex S-3a senso)

WernherVonTrapp · 11-02-10, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaddogK

3. I haven't noticed if the game imitates a doppler shift from shipping noise or active sonar, but it is present in aircraft, I can't imagine why it wouldn't be present in the game for underwater sound (you fellow sonar guys know what I'm talking about). I'll be paying more attention to this in the future.

This game's sonar is nowhere near the sonar in 688(i) but I can't complain, it could be alot worse. (Me- ex S-3a senso)

I believe the Dopplar Shift is inherent in all things that emit a wave form (i.e., sound, light, radar, etc.) I don't know if simulating that is even remotely possible in SHIV.

aanker · 11-02-10, 08:53 PM

Changed my mind, I'm not giving up on pinging friendlies.

If I ping (let's say a friendly US DD), my reflective ping returns at about the same pitch, even at a great distance. The sound travels off and bounces back at about the same tone.

Occasionally when pinging toward a ship or group (friendly again) it seems like I get pinged back at a different pitch, sometimes it is a powerful deep toned pitch. Doppler doesn't account for this deep of a tone. I'm thinking that deep 'bong' sound I hear sometimes is a ship pinging toward me.

As a rule I don't use the active sonar at all unless I'm approaching Midway etc and then it is only for game 'immersion' purposes.

Anyone else ever get that deep "bong back" sound?

Happy Hunting!

Art

Armistead · 11-03-10, 06:28 AM

The deep bong sound is your active ping hitting the ship, that is the return, not the Friendlys sending you pings, not in the game. Friendly's don't even go active on you in the game.

They will somewhat respond to you, if you're in the path you may see a TF breakup, some DD's come check you out ect. It's possible a ping may even upset the group. Still, I've been dived all around US TF and they never go active with sonar, just part of the programming so they don't attack friendly ships....

Be nice if they did, a few US subs were sunk be US DD's, some pinging the correct code. Once a enemy sub attacked a US ship and sunk it. The area was a no shoot area for US DD's unless exact confirmation because of all the US subs in the area. Another US DD went searching for the jap sub, but found an american sub. The american sub was pinging the correct code over and over, but the US DD ignored it and attacked over and over why the sub kept pinging the correct ID code. The US DD finally sunk the US sub, even painted a ship kill on it's bridge that it got a JP sub. I'm sure they felt stupid when they found out it was a US sub and they killed them all. They were so gung ho on getting revenge that they ignored protocal.
Can't imagine how the guys felt in the sub, getting blasted by your own why giving yourself away pinging the correct ID code.

aanker · 11-03-10, 11:39 AM

OK Armistead, I appreciate your patience - you are saying my reflective return ping I hear can be any pitch? My sound goes out at one tone pitch and sometimes it comes back after hitting its target at that same toned pitch but other times it comes back at a lower toned pitch. Why is that, depending on what type of target my ping hit? If I don't hit anything nothing bounces back of course.

If a ship hull is like a drum for example, and a big bass drum has a deeper pitch than a snare drum, is that what I'm hearing coming back? i.e. - I missed the DD I'm trying to ping that would bounce back at a higher pitch and hit a big CV behind him instead? That's my bong?

Bummer the geniuses that made SH4 didn't have the, err, budget, to model this recognition signal thing right. Too bad, one more thing I can cross off my mental list I gave them credit for incorporating into the game..... lol - just kidding fellas.

Happy Hunting!

Art

Dignan · 11-03-10, 12:35 PM

I think the farther away the target, the lower the pitch of the return bong. If you ping a ship that is only a few hundred yards away, the return will be very similar sounding to your own ping.

Diopos · 11-03-10, 12:55 PM

I'm not at all sure that the echo of "ping" can have a lower frequency component than the original "ping"...

(talking Real Physics now, not Ubi Physics

)

.

Armistead · 11-03-10, 02:23 PM

They're only two different tones per say, the high pitch you send out and the duller bong which is your active hitting the target. As stated, the active pitch can change speed as they go from longscale to short scale, but the return bong remains the same. If you look in the game sound files you will find softer and louder sonar pings, but the same pitch, so they do go that far.

If you're hearing the high active pinging from Friendlys, possibly your mod setup, but I don't think it was included in stock or most mods. I've been all around Friendly TF's submerged and never once have they gone active on me.

Obvious the return bong sound depends on how close the target hit was, far away it could take 30 seconds or more. To get range to your target, you wait for the return and send data the second you get it for range.

11-02-10, 10:32 AM	#31
Dogfish40 Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: LA Area, Central coast, California Posts: 1,023 Downloads: 827 Uploads: 0	I'm jumping on this rather late but one thing that I happened to ask myself, (being a sound engineer) I wondered if you could use your active sonar to cancel their pings if you could time it right, (an incredibly difficult if not impossible proposal) BUT....lo and behold, there was a protocol to use your active sonar to confuse the enemy when they were pinging. I know that this unfortunately is not written into the game but the Sub Doctrine said something to the effect that ; if you are using the same frequency, you had the possibility of confusing the ememy's active sonar, by pinging back. I'll have to go and get that chapter and share it, it was really interesting that it could be used in a desperate situation. I am sure no one would want to start pinging away when you're trying like hell to hide, but when the chips are down....hey D40 Cmmdr Uss Gar __________________ *Dogfish40*

11-02-10, 11:54 AM	#32
MaddogK XO Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Chicago, Ill. Posts: 409 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Just to add my 2 cents worth, 1. You NEVER want to go 'active' on a military ship, if they have any kinda passive sonar you will give them the vector your on and all they have to do is travel down that vector pinging, and they find you. 2. Unless your closing in for a kill you will almost always want to be below the layer. The layer is the boundary between warmer surface waters and the colder 'depths', and normally where sounds from the surface are reflected back toward the surface. Below this layer sound is generally reflected down until pressure refracts is back upward. I have verified the game does indeed model this as hunting destroyers usually cant find you (unless they're right on top of you) if your running silent below the layer. 3. I haven't noticed if the game imitates a doppler shift from shipping noise or active sonar, but it is present in aircraft, I can't imagine why it wouldn't be present in the game for underwater sound (you fellow sonar guys know what I'm talking about). I'll be paying more attention to this in the future. 4. I'm not a WW2 historian but before the advent of audio processing computers sonar operators could tell what type of contact they were tracking simply by listening to the noise it made. The game does a good job of recreating this but there's always room for improvement. There is a difference between tanker noise and a carrier, I'm just not sure how accurate it is (or how accurate it really needs to be), luckily this is an area that can be modded. This game's sonar is nowhere near the sonar in 688(i) but I can't complain, it could be alot worse. (Me- ex S-3a senso) __________________ May fortune favor the foolish

11-02-10, 08:53 PM	#34
aanker Pacific Thunder Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yellow Sea Posts: 1,896 Downloads: 236 Uploads: 14	Maybe my bubble ain't burst Changed my mind, I'm not giving up on pinging friendlies. If I ping (let's say a friendly US DD), my reflective ping returns at about the same pitch, even at a great distance. The sound travels off and bounces back at about the same tone. Occasionally when pinging toward a ship or group (friendly again) it seems like I get pinged back at a different pitch, sometimes it is a powerful deep toned pitch. Doppler doesn't account for this deep of a tone. I'm thinking that deep 'bong' sound I hear sometimes is a ship pinging toward me. As a rule I don't use the active sonar at all unless I'm approaching Midway etc and then it is only for game 'immersion' purposes. Anyone else ever get that deep "bong back" sound? Happy Hunting! Art __________________ " Bless those who serve beneath the deep, Through lonely hours their vigil keep. May peace their mission ever be, Protect each one we ask of thee. Bless those at home who wait and pray, For their return by night and day."

11-03-10, 11:39 AM	#36
aanker Pacific Thunder Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yellow Sea Posts: 1,896 Downloads: 236 Uploads: 14	Pinged pitch puzzle OK Armistead, I appreciate your patience - you are saying my reflective return ping I hear can be any pitch? My sound goes out at one tone pitch and sometimes it comes back after hitting its target at that same toned pitch but other times it comes back at a lower toned pitch. Why is that, depending on what type of target my ping hit? If I don't hit anything nothing bounces back of course. If a ship hull is like a drum for example, and a big bass drum has a deeper pitch than a snare drum, is that what I'm hearing coming back? i.e. - I missed the DD I'm trying to ping that would bounce back at a higher pitch and hit a big CV behind him instead? That's my bong? Bummer the geniuses that made SH4 didn't have the, err, budget, to model this recognition signal thing right. Too bad, one more thing I can cross off my mental list I gave them credit for incorporating into the game..... lol - just kidding fellas. Happy Hunting! Art __________________ " Bless those who serve beneath the deep, Through lonely hours their vigil keep. May peace their mission ever be, Protect each one we ask of thee. Bless those at home who wait and pray, For their return by night and day."

11-03-10, 12:55 PM	#38
Diopos Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Athens, the original one. Posts: 1,226 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	I'm not at all sure that the echo of "ping" can have a lower frequency component than the original "ping"... (talking Real Physics now, not Ubi Physics ) . __________________ - Oh God! They're all over the place! CRASH DIVE!!! - Ehm... we can't honey. We're in the car right now. - What?... er right... Doesn't matter! We'll give it a try anyway!

11-03-10, 06:28 AM	#35
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	The deep bong sound is your active ping hitting the ship, that is the return, not the Friendlys sending you pings, not in the game. Friendly's don't even go active on you in the game. They will somewhat respond to you, if you're in the path you may see a TF breakup, some DD's come check you out ect. It's possible a ping may even upset the group. Still, I've been dived all around US TF and they never go active with sonar, just part of the programming so they don't attack friendly ships.... Be nice if they did, a few US subs were sunk be US DD's, some pinging the correct code. Once a enemy sub attacked a US ship and sunk it. The area was a no shoot area for US DD's unless exact confirmation because of all the US subs in the area. Another US DD went searching for the jap sub, but found an american sub. The american sub was pinging the correct code over and over, but the US DD ignored it and attacked over and over why the sub kept pinging the correct ID code. The US DD finally sunk the US sub, even painted a ship kill on it's bridge that it got a JP sub. I'm sure they felt stupid when they found out it was a US sub and they killed them all. They were so gung ho on getting revenge that they ignored protocal. Can't imagine how the guys felt in the sub, getting blasted by your own why giving yourself away pinging the correct ID code.

11-03-10, 12:35 PM	#37
Dignan Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 698 Downloads: 262 Uploads: 0	I think the farther away the target, the lower the pitch of the return bong. If you ping a ship that is only a few hundred yards away, the return will be very similar sounding to your own ping.

11-03-10, 02:23 PM	#39
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	They're only two different tones per say, the high pitch you send out and the duller bong which is your active hitting the target. As stated, the active pitch can change speed as they go from longscale to short scale, but the return bong remains the same. If you look in the game sound files you will find softer and louder sonar pings, but the same pitch, so they do go that far. If you're hearing the high active pinging from Friendlys, possibly your mod setup, but I don't think it was included in stock or most mods. I've been all around Friendly TF's submerged and never once have they gone active on me. Obvious the return bong sound depends on how close the target hit was, far away it could take 30 seconds or more. To get range to your target, you wait for the return and send data the second you get it for range. Last edited by Armistead; 11-03-10 at 03:11 PM.