A question about the Sonar Ping - Page 2

WernherVonTrapp · 10-26-10, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

What I was asking Wernher is if he knew is a sub could pick up a return bong. I assume not because the sound wave would be bouncing away, make sense. We don't hear the return in the
game, nor do I think we would. If he has us on shortscale, he's obvious getting a Ping/Bong every few seconds, but we hear only the ping.

Just like in your sub, if you send a active ping, you wait for the return ping, more of a bong....Your ping has hit the target, so it makes a different sound. Using that info you can figure distane to the target. In game it's simple, just wait for the return bong and send to TDC and you get accurate range.

Well, I am only drawing an inference based on extrapolated information but, that is exactly how I presume it works too. The initial ping sent out by the DD is omnidirectional, just by the nature of the medium (water) in which it is travelling. So, it's intensity should be constant in all directions. However, I think, once it hits the sub, it loses some of that initial intensity because now it is merely a (reflection) of the original sound (or ping). It may bounce again when some of that reflection returns and hits the hull of the DD but the intensity is diminished and therefore, I'm uncertain as to whether this can be detected by passive devices on the sub. My instinct would dictate that this is totally possible but remember, like Armistead says, the sound (reflection) is now moving away from the sub. To hear it bounce off the DD involves, yet again, another reflection and an even greater loss to the original sound density. You don't actually hear it the second it hits the DD. Just like lightning and thunder, you see the lightning first, you hear it afterwards. With the DD, you can't see it hit the hull, but you may (or may not) hear it's diminished capacity after it travels back to the sub.
Ugh, my head hurts now. Sniff, sniff: Do you smell something burning?

Dignan · 10-26-10, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

Just know this, you go bonging around the Pacific, the DD's will hear it and come right to you, so be very careful about using active sonar. Sometimes I do it with cams and contacts off to get range when they're far away, but I've had escorts leave TF's from 13nms chasing my ping...

Sometimes it's useful, more than not it will slow the TF down as they go into zigs.

Has anyone ever tried intentionally pinging a convoy from a long distance to intentionally pull the escorts away? The goal would be to then quickly move away from that location hopefully leaving the DDs searching at your last known location. I haven't tried it but was wondering if it would work.

Armistead · 10-26-10, 01:08 PM

I do that all the time, just have to do it from far distances and only dive when your worried about a visual.

Right now I've found a huge convoy. I have cam and contacts off, no surface radar. I tracked as best I could with limited sonar until warship was spotted, few seconds later he was shooting, so I dived. Trying to track a convoy with the useless sonar is hard. I have several escorts around and hear pinging. This is the failure of the game, I have no idea what direction the pinging is coming from. Asking your sonarman for nearest warship is almost a joke, so I have no clue what's going on up there. They haven't found me yet, but soon will. All I can try to do is keep the convoy at a rough 90 track so I will have a chance to come up and shoot, hard to do.
In reality you sonarman could give you speed, rough distance and course, not in game. Hard to figure a course of a large zigging convoy. Waters are calm, 200ft deep...I'll be lucky to live through this.

I think a great mod would be only sonar lines show with contact off, so you would have the info a real sonarman would have.

WernherVonTrapp · 10-26-10, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I think a great mod would be only sonar lines show with contact off, so you would have the info a real sonarman would have.

That's the way RFB plays. No contact squares. Unless, of course, you have visual or on radar. Oh yeah, and if you use the mod to add the sonar lines.

KriegsMarine · 10-26-10, 10:13 PM

nice to see a simple sonar puzzle goes so far and have learned another useful attack tactics

thanx skippers

Sailor Steve · 10-26-10, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernherVonTrapp

The initial ping sent out by the DD is omnidirectional, just by the nature of the medium (water) in which it is travelling.

No, it's not.

Armistead · 10-27-10, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernherVonTrapp

That's the way RFB plays. No contact squares. Unless, of course, you have visual or on radar. Oh yeah, and if you use the mod to add the sonar lines.

That's the way the game plays, you don't see the contact icons until you have a visual or radar, TMO same way. I thought RFB nerfed the contact icons when they got close? What I want is no contact icons at all like contacts off, but sonar lines.

I'm not sure what Steve is saying. I would assume there's a difference between the sound and direction. Sound comes from a direction, but the sound covers a 360 pattern of degree's, you happening to hear it doesn't mean it's coming just to your direction, someone else could hear it from a different direction, but I assume Steve is saying it's directional when you're the one picking it up and I agree. That's what I hate in game, we just hear the ping, but have no idea of direction it's coming from. I'm sure inside the sub the ping sound may be rather omni sounding, but the sonarman could easily figure direction.

If a bear farts in the forest and no one hears it did it actually make a sound.....

KriegsMarine · 10-27-10, 01:06 AM

nice illustration, sailor steve

could you explain the three different sonar for us?

i am curious about it

Armistead · 10-27-10, 01:38 AM

That's not 3 different sonars, it illustrates the Type 147 sonar, used mostly by the Brits, US had some. It added a
horizontal search, a deadly sonar used for it's time. Used mainly for placing hedgehog patterns. Allied ships carry this in game

http://jproc.ca/sari/asd_et2.html

If you want to understand how sonar works in game you need to read this, Duc the maker of TMO explains how
sonar works with TMO
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

WernherVonTrapp · 10-27-10, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

No, it's not.

OK, I wasn't sure, and was therefore assuming that the sonar emitter was not directional during WWII. I knew it was on the newer subs. Thanks for pointing that out, and for the manner in which you did.

Everything else should still be applicable.

aanker · 10-27-10, 12:37 PM

For 'realism' I ping a friendly DD as I approach a port to refuel or end my patrol. At the sonar station I usually get a return ping from them and it is a different pitch.... they pinged me back with a different pitched ping - (say that 3 times fast) I should be able to hear this ping from anywhere inside the boat but I don't.

I call this procedure, "exchanging recognition signals" even though it isn't. Friendly DD's don't seem to care what I do as long as I don't shoot, with the exception of going 'All Back Full' if we are on a collision course and I have the right of way.

The Jap pings should be different when bouncing off my hull but I haven't noticed that. I agree, SHCE did do a better job with pings that hit my boat.

Happy Hunting!

Art

Armistead · 10-27-10, 01:17 PM

They're not pinging you back, you're getting a return ping because your have hit a target, more of a bong. If you were to hear them, it would be an actual ping, not a bong....

This is how you get distance to a target, when you hear the return sound, send to TDC, the math is done and you have a fairly accurate range.

KriegsMarine · 10-28-10, 07:26 AM

so, capt aanker, you think the sonar feature in SHCE is somewhat more realistic, right?

aanker · 10-28-10, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KriegsMarine

so, capt aanker, you think the sonar feature in SHCE is somewhat more realistic, right?

If you are referring to the sharp ping that hits our sub, yes I do believe that. Furthermore even in the movies they make the distinction between a search pig and a hull ping that hits. I've never been on a submarine that got pinged but even though Hollywood and Wolfgang Peterson exaggerate I think their sound effects are based on fact.

For example in "Hunt for Red October" that single range ping 'ponged' the whole boat like SHCE only deeper in pitch.....

I'm surprised that ping didn't break a light bulb - (I'm kidding)

Maybe a real sub guy will chime in here with facts.

Someone up there burst by bubble but I'm going to continue to "exchange recognition signals" because they did in real life as they approached a friendly.... and I can't do it on deep frequency so I do a sonar ping.

Happy Hunting!

Art

Armistead · 10-28-10, 01:16 PM

Wasn't trying to bust your bubble, keep on, just not in the game. If they were going to respond to your ping, you would get a sonar ping, your just getting your return hit. However, anything for immersion is OK with me.

10-27-10, 12:37 PM	#26
aanker Pacific Thunder Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yellow Sea Posts: 1,896 Downloads: 236 Uploads: 14	Ping on hull For 'realism' I ping a friendly DD as I approach a port to refuel or end my patrol. At the sonar station I usually get a return ping from them and it is a different pitch.... they pinged me back with a different pitched ping - (say that 3 times fast) I should be able to hear this ping from anywhere inside the boat but I don't. I call this procedure, "exchanging recognition signals" even though it isn't. Friendly DD's don't seem to care what I do as long as I don't shoot, with the exception of going 'All Back Full' if we are on a collision course and I have the right of way. The Jap pings should be different when bouncing off my hull but I haven't noticed that. I agree, SHCE did do a better job with pings that hit my boat. Happy Hunting! Art __________________ " Bless those who serve beneath the deep, Through lonely hours their vigil keep. May peace their mission ever be, Protect each one we ask of thee. Bless those at home who wait and pray, For their return by night and day."

10-27-10, 01:17 PM	#27
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	They're not pinging you back, you're getting a return ping because your have hit a target, more of a bong. If you were to hear them, it would be an actual ping, not a bong.... This is how you get distance to a target, when you hear the return sound, send to TDC, the math is done and you have a fairly accurate range. Last edited by Armistead; 10-28-10 at 08:02 AM.

10-26-10, 01:08 PM	#18
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I do that all the time, just have to do it from far distances and only dive when your worried about a visual. Right now I've found a huge convoy. I have cam and contacts off, no surface radar. I tracked as best I could with limited sonar until warship was spotted, few seconds later he was shooting, so I dived. Trying to track a convoy with the useless sonar is hard. I have several escorts around and hear pinging. This is the failure of the game, I have no idea what direction the pinging is coming from. Asking your sonarman for nearest warship is almost a joke, so I have no clue what's going on up there. They haven't found me yet, but soon will. All I can try to do is keep the convoy at a rough 90 track so I will have a chance to come up and shoot, hard to do. In reality you sonarman could give you speed, rough distance and course, not in game. Hard to figure a course of a large zigging convoy. Waters are calm, 200ft deep...I'll be lucky to live through this. I think a great mod would be only sonar lines show with contact off, so you would have the info a real sonarman would have.

10-26-10, 10:13 PM	#20
KriegsMarine Loader Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: West Point Posts: 90 Downloads: 1309 Uploads: 0	nice to see a simple sonar puzzle goes so far and have learned another useful attack tactics thanx skippers

10-27-10, 01:06 AM	#23
KriegsMarine Loader Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: West Point Posts: 90 Downloads: 1309 Uploads: 0	nice illustration, sailor steve could you explain the three different sonar for us? i am curious about it

10-27-10, 01:38 AM	#24
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	That's not 3 different sonars, it illustrates the Type 147 sonar, used mostly by the Brits, US had some. It added a horizontal search, a deadly sonar used for it's time. Used mainly for placing hedgehog patterns. Allied ships carry this in game http://jproc.ca/sari/asd_et2.html If you want to understand how sonar works in game you need to read this, Duc the maker of TMO explains how sonar works with TMO http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

10-28-10, 07:26 AM	#28
KriegsMarine Loader Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: West Point Posts: 90 Downloads: 1309 Uploads: 0	so, capt aanker, you think the sonar feature in SHCE is somewhat more realistic, right?

10-28-10, 01:16 PM	#30
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Wasn't trying to bust your bubble, keep on, just not in the game. If they were going to respond to your ping, you would get a sonar ping, your just getting your return hit. However, anything for immersion is OK with me.