The USA's Biggest Disadvantage - Page 2

Oberon · 10-12-10, 01:23 PM

Aaah, the age old debate between the division and in-fighting of democracy vs the fast decision making of totalitarianism.

Well, strictly speaking, using the Nazis as an example, and even to some extent most likely North Korea, there are still many groups and divisions.
Within the Nazi high command for example there were continual power struggles between the men at the top, Donitz trying to get aircraft off Goring for example, co-operation and co-ordination was limited because each department was fanatically protective of its own assets and its position within the hierarchy.
In the DPRK, I believe there are also many different powerbases within the actual government, the military is a big part of it, the communist party is another and the two have been at odds over who has the more power for sometime IIRC.

This is just a high level example of division within supposed unity. The only difference is that in a democracy it is encouraged to speak about differences, if you have a different opinion to someone else, you say so. However in a totalitarian regime, you keep that opinion to yourself, state the party line, but work towards your own agenda quietly.

Jimbuna · 10-12-10, 02:00 PM

Quote:

In the DPRK, I believe there are also many different powerbases within the actual government, the military is a big part of it, the communist party is another and the two have been at odds over who has the more power for sometime IIRC.

A bit like the Republicans v Democrats or Labour v Conservative.....but a whole lot more civilised

the_tyrant · 10-12-10, 02:45 PM

Ok, I got this conclusion from playing lots and lots of Victoria 2, so it's not reliable
You see, i think that Nazi Germany is not a state based on patriotism. its based on hatred and racism
I believe that in many situations, national unity is very important
Facism united the German citizens through hate and racism
but why not simply unite a country through patriotism?
I am not against dissent I support positive political suggestions
but I am against creating unrest just for the sake of it or damaging your country for certain political goals (greenpeace, PETA, hippies etc)

anyways, I'm just another politically unstable kid

frau kaleun · 10-12-10, 02:51 PM

The point you are missing is that many people whose goals you don't agree with, form them and strive to reach them because they believe that doing so IS in the best interest of the country. Their motivation is, as far as they're concerned, as patriotic as it is anything else.

If you think Nazism wasn't advanced using patriotism and love of der Vaterland as a primary element of its propaganda, then you need to get your history straight.

TLAM Strike · 10-12-10, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

Ok, I got this conclusion from playing lots and lots of Victoria 2...

I guess you didn't get to the end yet... Here is a spoiler...

THIS

AND THIS

Raptor1 · 10-12-10, 03:07 PM

I would've thought anyone who has ever played Victoria 2 would have a healthy respect to the effect of a million revolutionaries rising up to oppose his oppression...

the_tyrant · 10-12-10, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

I would've thought anyone who has ever played Victoria 2 would have a healthy respect to the effect of a million revolutionaries rising up to oppose his oppression...

This is the thing, why can't they fight against the enemy instead?
they always revolt when I am weak or at war
that means they love freedom more than their country
that means my patriotic education has failed

Oberon · 10-12-10, 03:48 PM

Hmm, but the question is...what IS Patriotism? Is it a form of nationalism? And is not fascism an extreme form of nationalism?

Therefore, on a broad scale, is not Patriotism a diluted form of fascism?

Of course, this is a broad scale which the multi-cultural society chaps just love to jump on and discourage the expression of Patriotism and pride in ones nation for fear that it may result in nationalism and xenophobia and yes, if pushed in the right direction, as it was in Nazi Germany, then yes, a sweeping wave of patriotism can inspire a form of xenophobia and a smug feeling of superiority over another nation.

Look, for example, the view that some American people hold of the people of France...I believe the usual term used is "Cheese eating surrender monkeys", or the changing of the term "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries", subtle overtures of a society which has molded itself to dislike another society. The British are guilty of it too to an extend, and every nation has a traditional 'enemy', for Nazi Germany it was the people who defeated Germany in the first war (France primarily, Britain secondarily) and communists.
It helps for every government to have an enemy to motivate the people against, this is why some people think 9/11 was an inside job, but that is as controversial as it is not a part of this thread, twice it was Germany, one it was Britain, now it is Terrorism, which is helpful because it is not a nation it is an ideal which transcends national boundaries, however in the end it still boils down to national boundaries, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, North Korea, China, even Russia to some extent, although obviously this list varies from country to country.
It's just human nature, and perhaps, if one were to look at it in a more cynical way, it is also a manner in which those in power keep those they govern under control, an effective manner of increasing production and/or national security by focusing the media on a national enemy. One only has to look at the propaganda posters of the First and Second World Wars "Destroy this Mad Brute - Enlist today!" "When you drive alone, you drive with Hitler!" "Dig for Victory!" and so on and so forth. In times of crisis, the government needs the people to work for it, not against it, and will do whatever it can to make sure that this continues, even if that includes classification of high casualty rates (as in the incident at Bethnal Green tube station during the Blitz when a panic whilst descending into the tube station caused a crowd surge and some 173 people died, the disaster was reported, but the location was censored and only a brief statement on the report into the incident was made in Parliament) and/or the hyping up of the threat against the nation (as seen in places like Japan where civilians were encouraged to commit suicide rather than defect to the Americans, some ten thousand Japanese men, women and children on Saipan committed suicide as a result) as to encourage the people to 'rally around the flag' and to keep fighting or producing for the nation so that it may continue to function.
So, in a way, patriotism and nationalism are good things, they keep nations alive, they make them healthy producers, after all, America is a very patriotic nation and it has benefited from this in many ways, but it has also made it divisive in some respects between those who are deeply patriotic and those who are less patriotic. Then you get the extremes...you get them in every nation, and they grab more peoples attentions because they make better headlines, and because they grab more peoples attentions, they are often mistaken for national opinion by people from other countries, rather than as the extremists they actually are.

Anyway, I'm rambling again, but it's a subject I do think about from time to time, and it's rather fascinating if one looks at it from an external viewpoint...but we are all, by some extent, affected by Patriotism and nationalism in our lives, if only by jokes and stereotypes against other nations. Something to think about.

Oberon · 10-12-10, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

I guess you didn't get to the end yet... Here is a spoiler...

THIS

AND THIS

Well put.

Sailor Steve · 10-12-10, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

You see, i think that Nazi Germany is not a state based on patriotism. its based on hatred and racism

There's where you're wrong. At the end of World War One the Germans were taken to the cleaners by the British and the French. The war had started out of mutual fear and aggression, but it was the Germans who ended up apologizing and being bankrupted by paying war reparations. The Great Depression started in Germany ten years before it hit the rest of the world.

Hitler and his team had lots of hate and racism, but they came to power by convincing the people they could restore Germany to her former greatness. The people of Germany didn't embrace Hitler and the Nazis because of racism or hatred, they did so out of national pride, because Hitler was a man who could, and did, make it happen. Germany was united through patriotism.

And blind patriotism is as bad as any other 'ism'. A few quotes for you:

"Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.
-James Madison

"'My country, right or wrong' is something no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case."
-H. L. Mencken

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
-Hermann Göring

The word 'Patriot' comes from a Greek term meaning 'Fellow Countrymen', and in it's purest sense is defined as one who loves and defends his country. Unfortunately the term is often used to lead people into blindly following the ideal of the word 'country' while going in exactly the opposite direction of what made the country in the first place. This is especially true in American history. Just as some churchmen will tell you to hate in the name of God, some 'patriots' will try to convince you that freedom is "unAmerican", and to get you to deny it in the name of 'country'.

Raptor1 · 10-12-10, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

This is the thing, why can't they fight against the enemy instead?
they always revolt when I am weak or at war
that means they love freedom more than their country
that means my patriotic education has failed

Well, obviously people would revolt if they were treated like drones and their country wasted their resources on wars in which they have no interest.

See Russia, 1917.

antikristuseke · 10-12-10, 06:18 PM

It is difficult to love a country that just keeps on ****ing you over.

frau kaleun · 10-12-10, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

This is the thing, why can't they fight against the enemy instead?
they always revolt when I am weak or at war
that means they love freedom more than their country
that means my patriotic education has failed

By your reasoning, "their country" = the people who run it or rule it, and does not include all the people who are tired of being ruled that way and are therefore revolting - in large part because their rulers have given them no other viable option for initiating a change of leadership.

The kind of "extreme patriotism" that you advocated in your first post, under which everyone is supposed to accept and agree with whatever "their country" (i.e., the people running it - a false premise to begin with) want to do to them or anyone else, is one of the surest ways to bring about that kind of revolt.

For references, see the entire history of the human race.

And yeah, I also love freedom more than "my country." Fortunately I live in a country where I have quite a bit of it, so it's never been an issue for me personally.

10-12-10, 06:35 PM

Patriotism & Nationalism is defending your country 100% of the time, and defending your government when they deserve it.

nikimcbee · 10-12-10, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Wow... just wow...

Troll much?

Ha, speaking of trolls, what ever happen to all of the Serb trolls that used to hang out here

. Now they were entertaining.

10-12-10, 03:07 PM	#21
Raptor1 Navy Seal Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Stavka Posts: 8,211 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	I would've thought anyone who has ever played Victoria 2 would have a healthy respect to the effect of a million revolutionaries rising up to oppose his oppression... __________________ Current Eastern Front status: Probable Victory

10-12-10, 01:23 PM	#16
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Aaah, the age old debate between the division and in-fighting of democracy vs the fast decision making of totalitarianism. Well, strictly speaking, using the Nazis as an example, and even to some extent most likely North Korea, there are still many groups and divisions. Within the Nazi high command for example there were continual power struggles between the men at the top, Donitz trying to get aircraft off Goring for example, co-operation and co-ordination was limited because each department was fanatically protective of its own assets and its position within the hierarchy. In the DPRK, I believe there are also many different powerbases within the actual government, the military is a big part of it, the communist party is another and the two have been at odds over who has the more power for sometime IIRC. This is just a high level example of division within supposed unity. The only difference is that in a democracy it is encouraged to speak about differences, if you have a different opinion to someone else, you say so. However in a totalitarian regime, you keep that opinion to yourself, state the party line, but work towards your own agenda quietly.

10-12-10, 02:45 PM	#18
the_tyrant Admiral Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 2,272 Downloads: 58 Uploads: 0	Ok, I got this conclusion from playing lots and lots of Victoria 2, so it's not reliable You see, i think that Nazi Germany is not a state based on patriotism. its based on hatred and racism I believe that in many situations, national unity is very important Facism united the German citizens through hate and racism but why not simply unite a country through patriotism? I am not against dissent I support positive political suggestions but I am against creating unrest just for the sake of it or damaging your country for certain political goals (greenpeace, PETA, hippies etc) anyways, I'm just another politically unstable kid

10-12-10, 02:51 PM	#19
frau kaleun Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skyri--oh who are we kidding, I'm probably at Lowe's. Again. Posts: 12,706 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	The point you are missing is that many people whose goals you don't agree with, form them and strive to reach them because they believe that doing so IS in the best interest of the country. Their motivation is, as far as they're concerned, as patriotic as it is anything else. If you think Nazism wasn't advanced using patriotism and love of der Vaterland as a primary element of its propaganda, then you need to get your history straight.

10-12-10, 03:48 PM	#23
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Hmm, but the question is...what IS Patriotism? Is it a form of nationalism? And is not fascism an extreme form of nationalism? Therefore, on a broad scale, is not Patriotism a diluted form of fascism? Of course, this is a broad scale which the multi-cultural society chaps just love to jump on and discourage the expression of Patriotism and pride in ones nation for fear that it may result in nationalism and xenophobia and yes, if pushed in the right direction, as it was in Nazi Germany, then yes, a sweeping wave of patriotism can inspire a form of xenophobia and a smug feeling of superiority over another nation. Look, for example, the view that some American people hold of the people of France...I believe the usual term used is "Cheese eating surrender monkeys", or the changing of the term "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries", subtle overtures of a society which has molded itself to dislike another society. The British are guilty of it too to an extend, and every nation has a traditional 'enemy', for Nazi Germany it was the people who defeated Germany in the first war (France primarily, Britain secondarily) and communists. It helps for every government to have an enemy to motivate the people against, this is why some people think 9/11 was an inside job, but that is as controversial as it is not a part of this thread, twice it was Germany, one it was Britain, now it is Terrorism, which is helpful because it is not a nation it is an ideal which transcends national boundaries, however in the end it still boils down to national boundaries, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, North Korea, China, even Russia to some extent, although obviously this list varies from country to country. It's just human nature, and perhaps, if one were to look at it in a more cynical way, it is also a manner in which those in power keep those they govern under control, an effective manner of increasing production and/or national security by focusing the media on a national enemy. One only has to look at the propaganda posters of the First and Second World Wars "Destroy this Mad Brute - Enlist today!" "When you drive alone, you drive with Hitler!" "Dig for Victory!" and so on and so forth. In times of crisis, the government needs the people to work for it, not against it, and will do whatever it can to make sure that this continues, even if that includes classification of high casualty rates (as in the incident at Bethnal Green tube station during the Blitz when a panic whilst descending into the tube station caused a crowd surge and some 173 people died, the disaster was reported, but the location was censored and only a brief statement on the report into the incident was made in Parliament) and/or the hyping up of the threat against the nation (as seen in places like Japan where civilians were encouraged to commit suicide rather than defect to the Americans, some ten thousand Japanese men, women and children on Saipan committed suicide as a result) as to encourage the people to 'rally around the flag' and to keep fighting or producing for the nation so that it may continue to function. So, in a way, patriotism and nationalism are good things, they keep nations alive, they make them healthy producers, after all, America is a very patriotic nation and it has benefited from this in many ways, but it has also made it divisive in some respects between those who are deeply patriotic and those who are less patriotic. Then you get the extremes...you get them in every nation, and they grab more peoples attentions because they make better headlines, and because they grab more peoples attentions, they are often mistaken for national opinion by people from other countries, rather than as the extremists they actually are. Anyway, I'm rambling again, but it's a subject I do think about from time to time, and it's rather fascinating if one looks at it from an external viewpoint...but we are all, by some extent, affected by Patriotism and nationalism in our lives, if only by jokes and stereotypes against other nations. Something to think about.

10-12-10, 06:18 PM	#27
antikristuseke Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Estland Posts: 4,330 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	It is difficult to love a country that just keeps on ****ing you over.

10-12-10, 06:35 PM	#29
Snestorm Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Patriotism & Nationalism is defending your country 100% of the time, and defending your government when they deserve it.